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TheNobleEu
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Huh? The Taepo-Dong II's supposed threat to the US has long been public knowledge.


"Huh?" You mean the Taepo-Dong II the mainstream media claims can only hit Hawaii?



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Add these two factors together and you have a very inefficient, inaccurate, and untested ICBM.


Probably, you hope. Guidance systems are a notorious bugbear. This must be what generated your source's comment that:

"Today, this missile represents the single greatest nuclear threat to the United States."



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
And this is the exact response needed to counter N. Korea's brinkmanship dimplomacy.


They don't practice "brinkmanship diplomacy." They practice "I'll pretend I'm a threat so I can get fed" diplomacy.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Of course the US understands N. Korea the least. NOBODY understands N. Korea. Even China is flustered by N. Korean behaviour. The US won't be able to bully N. Korea, but the intent is to NOT be bullied by N. Korea ... hopefully a little was learned from the 90's.


Oh? Such as...?

The DPRK is hardly a bully to the US -- it's crying out to be rescued from its crack habit.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
If China attacks unprovoked, and the US responds, Japan is treaty bound to aid the US/Taiwan. It more or less draws a thick line in the sand to counter the line in the sand drawn by the Chinese anti-secession law.


You really think the US would respond against China over Taiwan?

BTW did you see this?
http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050605033647.nq079zm7.html


quote:
Originally posted by occrider
America's wealth and industrial might, not just potential, were well entrenched long before both wars however. For example, America overtook Great Britain as the world's manufacturing powerhouse in the 1890s, well before both wars:


I'd be interested in reading the article linked to the image (wikipedia?) but I couldn't get at anything at the base URLs. I can't think of anything relevant that was going on during the 1890s...

Cheers,
-Noble


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Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-15-2005 at 08:17

Old Post Jun-15-2005 08:01  Canada
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by TheNobleEu
"Huh?" You mean the Taepo-Dong II the mainstream media claims can only hit Hawaii?


Ummm no if you read the article I provided, Tenet said quite clearly:

quote:

While testifying at a Senate committee hearing in Washington, CIA Director George Tenet was asked whether North Korea had a ballistic missile capable of reaching the U.S. West Coast.

Before answering, Tenet turned to very quickly consult with aides sitting behind him.

"I think the declassified answer, is yes, they can do that," Tenet said.
.
.
.
The estimate is not new -- it was laid out in an unclassified CIA document in December 2001-- but Tenet is the most senior U.S. official to say so publicly.

The 2001 report said North Korea's Taepo Dong 2 missile may be capable of hitting the West Coast of the United States, as well Alaska and Hawaii.


quote:

Probably, you hope. Guidance systems are a notorious bugbear. This must be what generated your source's comment that:

"Today, this missile represents the single greatest nuclear threat to the United States."


It is the greatest nuclear threat to the US. But simply because there is no other comprable significant nuclear threat anywhere else. That doesn't necessarily mean the missile is any more capable than it really is. On paper the missile may be able to hit the west coast. As a practical nuclear delivery system, I'm extremely skeptical. The US and the Soviet Union (and China) conducted tens of hundreds of nuclear weapons test not just to test the capabilities of the missile, but to perfect the warhead itself. Producing a nuclear warhead is one thing, mastering the minaturization it takes to make an effective ICBM deliverable warhead is quite another thing altogether.

quote:

They don't practice "brinkmanship diplomacy." They practice "I'll pretend I'm a threat so I can get fed" diplomacy.


That IS brinkmanship diplomacy:

The practice, especially in international politics, of seeking advantage by creating the impression that one is willing and able to push a highly dangerous situation to the limit rather than concede.
http://www.answers.com/brinkmanship&r=67

What else would you call its defiance of the IAEA and subsequent withdrawal from the NPT despite the 1994 "framework agreement" to deliver food and fuel?

quote:

Oh? Such as...?

The DPRK is hardly a bully to the US -- it's crying out to be rescued from its crack habit.


Such as appeasement has been tried and failed with respect to the Korean peninsula. N. Korea, restarted its nuclear weapons programs in the late 90's in spite of its agreement to cease such activities. The DPRK is a bully to the region, and it's banking on its destabilizing effect to extort the rest of the world. Crying out to be rescued from its crack habit?? Please, it's estimated that N. Korea devotes nearly a third of its economic output on military expenditures. If the country were serious about feeding its people it would abide by international rules for the distribution of aid or make effort to eliminate the impedances of getting food to its people.

quote:

You really think the US would respond against China over Taiwan?

BTW did you see this?
http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050605033647.nq079zm7.html


If it was an attack unprovoked by a Taiwanese declaration of independance ... probably.

quote:

During an earlier interview with ABC television, Bush said he would do "whatever it takes" to defend Taiwan from any Chinese attack -- comments that appeared to change long-standing U.S. doctrine toward China and coincided with rising tensions between Washington and Beijing.

Bush said he did not consider his comments a change in policy, though no other president has made such an explicit commitment to the defense of Taiwan.

"Our nation will help Taiwan defend itself," he said. "At the same time, we support the one-China policy, and we expect the dispute to be resolved peacefully."
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOL...bush.taiwan.03/



quote:

I'd be interested in reading the article linked to the image (wikipedia?) but I couldn't get at anything at the base URLs. I can't think of anything relevant that was going on during the 1890s...

Cheers,
-Noble


Wiki is down, but here's a cached version:

[url]http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cacheAl1TS2CDLMJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution+industrial+revolution+wiki&hl=en[/url]

Did Great Britain undergo its industrial revolution due to a war? No it was fueled by resources, technology, labor, etc., the same as America.

Edit: sigh ... stupid smilies. If you want to read the link you'll have to replace the smiley with a ": D" (subtract the space)


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 14:22  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas
Re: Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course

quote:
article:

When European analysts coo about a "Chinese century", all they mean is "Oh, God, please, anything other than a second American century". But wishing won't make it so.


Truest words I've heard in a long time


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 15:10  Israel
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TheNobleEu
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Truest words I've heard in a long time


Actually, it's somewhat delusional.

America's convinced it will retain preeminence forever, when it's sun is aleady going down. The trade deficit is staggering, Dubya has ruined the American image in the global perspective, and she is already panicking over the incredible GDP growth rates of China and the rapidity with which it has shifted to a free market. There's a reason the USA is so heavily invested in China.

Also, a sort of socio-psychological study could be done about how the US media depicts the EU. It tries very amusingly (but in a most uninformed/tongue-in-cheek manner) to play-down the fact that the EU has already emerged as an economic superpower to counterbalance the US as sole economic giant (and no, the EU is not particularly interested in being a military superpower just yet, if ever).

The USA is already forced to observe the edicts of Brussels, and its CEOs have been stewing about it even since the EU Commission for Antitrust slapped e.g., Microsoft with a $600 million fine. Microsoft whined but complied, submitting its proposal for how it intends to comply with the EU verdict only the other day.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Producing a nuclear warhead is one thing, mastering the minaturization it takes to make an effective ICBM deliverable warhead is quite another thing altogether.


Oh, totally agreed. We have both commented on delivery systems being the primary obstacle. But you also probably know about the assistance the DRPK has been receiving from countries that do have advanced delivery systems...

Facts remains that the DPRK technology is advanced enough to elicit panic in the USA, a nuclear and military deterent in response, deception in the public media about the capabilities and degree of the DPRK nuclear program, and diplomacy to isolate and pressure the DPRK into giving up its program and halting any further development.

You can blithely dismiss the potential, but the thinktanks don't and neither does the White House.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
What else would you call its defiance of the IAEA and subsequent withdrawal from the NPT despite the 1994 "framework agreement" to deliver food and fuel?


Both the IAEA and the NPT are a giant farse, as you well know. Exclusive "us only, denial for anyone else"-clubs have a long history of total failure.

Think after the DPRK, then Iran, that the US will move on to India-Pakistan?



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
N. Korea, restarted its nuclear weapons programs in the late 90's in spite of its agreement to cease such activities. The DPRK is a bully to the region, and it's banking on its destabilizing effect to extort the rest of the world. Crying out to be rescued from its crack habit?? Please, it's estimated that N. Korea devotes nearly a third of its economic output on military expenditures. If the country were serious about feeding its people it would abide by international rules for the distribution of aid or make effort to eliminate the impedances of getting food to its people.


Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The DPRK curbed its nuclear ambitions under the caveats that:

1. The USA provide, install, and oversee the technology for nuclear reactors for the exclusive purpose of generating electricity;
2. The USA provide monetary, food, and infrastructural aid to relieve the economy and the population.

The DPRK restarted its program and ejected the IAEA from its facilities when the USA summarily reneged on these commitments.


quote:
Originally posted by occrider
If it was an attack unprovoked by a Taiwanese declaration of independance ... probably.


Humbug.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Did Great Britain undergo its industrial revolution due to a war? No it was fueled by resources, technology, labor, etc., the same as America.


Hmm, and the Crimean and Boer Wars?

Thanks for the link,
-Noble


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Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-15-2005 at 18:17

Old Post Jun-15-2005 16:22  Canada
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by TheNobleEu
Actually, it's somewhat delusional.

America's convinced it will retain preeminence forever... blah blah blah blah...


Yea, you just proved my point


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 16:55  Israel
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
They may have some resources but it's either still in the ground or not even close to what they need.
They have made major, major deals in South America for things such as ore, nickel, etc.


They still have more resources than most countries in the world. The fact that they're not being used yet is only something that's in their favor, because it means they still have a lot more developing potential than the countries who have used up their resources.


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 17:43  Croatia
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TheNobleEu
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Yea, you just proved my point


Nice argument, totally convincing.

You wouldn't have a vested interest here, would you?

Cheers,
-Noble


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 18:14  Canada
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by TheNobleEu
Actually, it's somewhat delusional.

America's convinced it will retain preeminence forever, when it's sun is aleady going down. The trade deficit is staggering, Dubya has ruined the American image in the global perspective, and she is already panicking over the incredible GDP growth rates of China and the rapidity with which it has shifted to a free market. There's a reason the USA is so heavily invested in China.

Also, a sort of socio-psychological study could be done about how the US media depicts the EU. It tries very amusingly (but in a most uninformed/tongue-in-cheek manner) to play-down the fact that the EU has already emerged as a rising economic counterbalance to the US as sole superpower (and no, the EU is not particularly interested in being a military superpower just yet, if ever).

The USA is already forced to observe the edicts of Brussels, and its CEOs have been stewing about it even since the EU Commission for Antitrust slapped e.g., Microsoft with a $600 million fine. Microsoft whined but complied, submitting its proposal for how it intends to comply with the EU verdict only the other day.


How has the media been downplaying the economic circumstances of the EU? It actually has numerous structural problems with three of the EU's largest economies facing significant economic problems. The worst of the wear is Italy which is plagued by recession in the past 2 quarters. Its unit/labor costs have risen by 20% since adopting the Euro making its exports uncompetitive, and its public debt is over 100% of GDP. Then there's Germany which has been stagnating for the past several years at under 2% growth with minimal domestic demand. Unfortunately its labor market woes are only going to get worse due to the absence of much needed social reform. The best off of the biggest 3 eurozone economies is France and even they are suffering from near double digit unemployment.

All of their problems are exacerbated by the ECB's inability to practice any kind of coherent and effective monetary policies. Just look at what it has to deal with:



Raise interest rates and Italy/Germany suffers. Lower interest rates and Ireland/Spain suffers. That's why the ECB has kept rates constant for the past 2 years ... they've adopted a middle ground policy that makes no one happy. So how are the Eurozone economies forced to deal with the lack of monetary policy? With fiscal policy of course. However, even fiscal policy has its limits of effectiveness. Portugal, Germany, Italy, and France have all breached the Maastricht criteria repeatedly without triggering sanctions. And despite the deficit spending, they are not stimulating economic growth. Therefore you have structural economic problems that fiscal policy is not helping and monetary policy that can't be used because the ECB can ONLY use monetary policy for one thing: price stability.

Already you have grumblings from many of the member states about the whole deal. The Germans are certainly pissed off. I've long said that the rise in the Euro would end up hurting the bigger economies because their domestic demand is weak ... they need a competitive currency to keep exports up. So what's beginning to happen? The Stern magazine did a poll which resulted in 56% of Germans saying they want to bring back the DM:

http://theage.com.au/text/articles/...l?oneclick=true

The Italians followed this up by grumbling from some of their ministers with discussions of backing out of the Euro.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=611492005

Now granted it is extremely unlikely that the Eurozone is going to be abandoned anytime soon, but it’s nowhere near an economic counterbalance to the US in the state that it is in. This is reflected in the financial markets with currency traders pushing the US’s current account deficit to the back of their mind and selling the Euro down to $1.22. The division of the Eurozone economies is also reflected in the bond markets with the difference between the spread on the yield of Italian and German 10 year t-notes rising to 17 points.

As for the Microsoft decision, what’s so special about that? European firms are forced to comply with the SEC and US anti-trust laws and vice-versa for the European counterparties. That has always been the case.

quote:

Oh, totally agreed. We have both commented on delivery systems being the primary obstacle. But you also probably know about the assistance the DRPK has been receiving from countries that do have advanced delivery systems...

Facts remains that the DPRK technology is advanced enough to elicit panic in the USA, a nuclear and military deterent in response, deception in the public media about the capabilities and degree of the DPRK nuclear program, and diplomacy to isolate and pressure the DPRK into giving up its program and halting any further development.

You can blithely dismiss the potential, but the thinktanks don't and neither does the White House.


How is there deception in the public media about the capabilities of the DPRK nuke program and capabilities? I just quoted you an article where Tenet himself is telling the public that N. Korea has a missile capable of hitting the west coast. They’ve also been saying that N. Korea, has had nukes since early 2000. If the white house is trying to keep this secret so as to not “elicit panic” in the US than they’re doing a pretty piss poor job of it by telling it directly to the media! The white house has been propagating all along that N. Korea poses a legitimate threat because it’s in their best interest to DO so. My denigration of the threat claimed by the white house comes from various think tanks that downgrade the risk somewhat such as fas.org or missilethreat.

quote:

Both the IAEA and the NPT are a giant farse, as you well know. Exclusive "us only, denial for anyone else"-clubs have a long history of total failure.

Think after the DPRK, then Iran, that the US will move on to India-Pakistan?


Why yes because I’ve never heard of South Africa, Argentina, Iraq, or any of the ex-Soviet Union states. The only failure was India/Pakistan. And now Iran/N. Korea because there isn’t enough international pressure to force these states into abandoning their programs.

quote:

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The DPRK curbed its nuclear ambitions under the caveats that:

1. The USA provide, install, and oversee the technology for nuclear reactors for the exclusive purpose of generating electricity;
2. The USA provide monetary, food, and infrastructural aid to relieve the economy and the population.

The DPRK restarted its program and ejected the IAEA from its facilities when the USA summarily reneged on these commitments.


Ah yes, except delays in food shipments and the KEDO project were tied to N. Korean provocations and aggressive acts against S. Korea and Japan. One such example is when the S. Koreans called for a delay due to submarine and spy excursions across the DMZ or the N. Korean testing of missiles over Japan:


http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd10/10nkor.htm

Additiionally a large part of the delay was due to N. Korean non-cooperation and non-compliance with IAEA accords:

quote:

One senior KEDO official estimates that KEDO will have completed a "significant portion of the [light-water reactor] project" by the first half of 2005, and will then be ready to receive key nuclear components. Under the Agreed Framework, North Korea must come into compliance with its IAEA safeguards agreement before those components are delivered.

The original schedule envisioned conducting the inspections in the late 1990s and finishing both reactors by 2003--and the completion date could slip again. KEDO still faces tough negotiations with North Korea over several issues, including liability and the possible need to refurbish North Korea's electrical grid, which is in extremely poor condition.

Although North Korea is expected to comply with its safeguards agreement, no one knows for sure whether it will do so. It has failed to cooperate with the IAEA on a range of verification issues, raising concerns that it may not be completely cooperative when the inspection process resumes. In addition to inspecting North Korea's known nuclear infrastructure, the IAEA will also have to verify the absence of undeclared nuclear sites or activities.

As recently as October 17, the IAEA said it had not made any significant progress in verifying that North Korea had come into compliance with its safeguards agreement or that North Korea had not produced more plutonium than it declared in the early 1990s. IAEA Director General Mohammed El Baradei said in an October 17 Reuters interview: "We are still where we had been a year ago. We continue to verify the freeze of the existing facilities but we haven't really made any progress with regard to verification of the past program."


In early November, however, North Korea said it would allow IAEA inspectors to visit the Isotope Production Laboratory at Yongbyon, a facility suspected of being involved in plutonium separation. Whether North Korea will allow the inspectors to investigate past activities at the facility remains unclear.

Because inspections are tied to construction milestones, as things stand the IAEA may not begin the verification process until about 2005. The IAEA's director general and senior staff estimate that it will take three to four years to conduct inspections, so the inspections might not be finished until 2008 or 2009. If pressed, though, the IAEA could act more quickly and still do the inspections adequately.

Such a delay could open the way for disruptions in the Agreed Framework's delicate balance, which could also impair the inter-Korean peace process. Mistrust of North Korea remains high in general, and from time to time the North is accused of having hidden nuclear weapons facilities (see "Under Mt. Chun-Ma," page 58).

And what if the verification process were to fail? The IAEA can only determine whether North Korea is in compliance with its safeguards agreement if it cooperates. North Korea is still deeply suspicious of the IAEA.

Given the timeline, it would be prudent for the Bush administration to try to help jump-start IAEA inspections. In his July 26, 2001 testimony before the House Committee on International Relations, Charles Pritchard, a senior State Department official, said: "Improved implementation of the Agreed Framework provisions related to North Korea's nuclear activities was one of the administration's top priorities. [North Korean] cooperation with the IAEA will become increasingly important. Although the date for delivering key nuclear components is still in the future, [North Korea] must begin active cooperation soon, to avoid serious delays in the KEDO project."
http://www.thebulletin.org/article....f02albright_039


The N. Koreans themselves provoked the delays with their continued aggression, non-compliance, and brinkmanship diplomacy. Furthermore, the US was correct in assuming that they had already violated the accords because they restarted their weapons programs in the late 90’s. Long before they officially broke from the agreement citing the delays in KEDO.

quote:

Hmm, and the Crimean and Boer Wars?



I’ve never heard any historian put forth the argument that the Crimean or Boer war had any significant impact whatsoever on Britain’s industrial revolution. If you have detailed analyses demonstrating such a cause and effect relationship, I would be very interested in reading it.

quote:
Thanks for the link,


No problem.


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 19:27  United States
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SOLO
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2003
Location: everywhere..CTA #27

quote:
Originally posted by TheNobleEu

America got rich on the industrialization that was the direct result of both World Wars. They were essentially back then (and still are) the arms dealer par excellence, who was very badly needed to continue the war efforts.

Cheers,
-Noble



Don't forget the U.S./Mexico war and treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The US acquired Arizona, California, New Mexico, Texas, and parts of Colorado, Nevada and Utah (55% of Mexico). These states provided significant resources; gold (California) oil (Texas) copper (Arizona) etc...




http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/ghtreaty/


http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/mainframe.html


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Old Post Jun-15-2005 20:48  United States
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TheNobleEu
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
How has the media been downplaying the economic circumstances of the EU?


I just wrote a huge response to this and then backed up a page and lost it. I can't be bothered to write it again now, will post later.

Cheers,
-Noble


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Old Post Jun-16-2005 00:01  Canada
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xxxtasy
tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Neverland

I want to ask, how reputable is The Telegraph?

There are soo many flaws in this guy's opinion.

1. Yes Mao accidently killed a lot of people but it was a mistake, it was wrong communist ideals. Hitler slaughtered people with intention.

2. North Korea's nuke problem is a card Beijing can play in the political arena. So does USA uses Taiwan as a leverage. It is politics.

3. Political freedom is supressed, doesnt' mean technoligical creativity is supressed. China has been luring foreign research centers, increased the salaries of all universitie's professors so that they don't work in US. What has recent Microsoft's censorship of their China blogs got to stiffling advancement in science?

And I could go on and on..........

Old Post Jun-16-2005 13:48  Taiwan
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St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by xxxtasy
1. Yes Mao accidently killed a lot of people but it was a mistake, it was wrong communist ideals. Hitler slaughtered people with intention.


ehm, hitler too had good intentions!

Old Post Jun-16-2005 14:29  Europe
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course
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