Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Blow it out your ass, Bono!
Pages (2): « 1 [2]   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
In all seriousness, please name me any war in history where the plundering of an invaded nation's resources by the occupying force could be morally justified?


I don't think 'plundering' was implied; more like, fiscal reponsibility for debt. and favours incurred.
It is morally right to send money, food and clothing to Africa in need; absolutely! (Nobody is suggesting that it stop altogether or I would hope not)
But what is so wrong in asking for someone to stand up for themselves after years of sticking their hands out?
At what point would we expect some kind of gesture of actual self-esteem and willingness to drudge themselves out of the hell-hole they have themselves in?
After 20 years or more, in the world we live in today, I think the question is more than justified...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Jul-21-2005 at 04:17

Old Post Jul-21-2005 00:30  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I don't think 'plundering' was implied; more like, fiscal reponsibility for debt. and favours incurred.


His implication (and yours too, from what I can tell) was that an invading force has a legitimate, moral claim to the resources of the nation it's forcibly occupying. How, exactly, is this not "plunder"?

quote:
It is morally right to send money, food and clothing to Africa in need; absolutely! (Nobody is suggesting that it stop altogether or I would hope not)


Right. So what are we arguing about then?

quote:
But what is so wrong in asking for someone to stand up for themselves after years of sticking their hands out?
At what point would we expect some kind of gesture of actual self-esteem and willingness to drudge themselves out of the hell-hole they have themselves in?
After 20 years or more, in the world we live in today, I think the question is more than justified...


If you're talking about the people rising up and overthrowing despotic governments in Africa, then this happens with appalling frequency. Trouble is, those who replace the despots at the top tend to be less concerned with what is best for the people of their nation and more concerned with keeping power by violently crushing political opposition. It's a viscious circle: in nations as heavily fractured as many of those in Africa, the alternative is often as undesirable as the status quo. The regular, impoverished citizens of these nations have little say in the militant power-plays going on at the head of their countries. Even if they were to support a rebellion, the new government would likely be every bit as brutal and despotic, because that's the only way power can be maintained in a lot of these places.

So yes, I agree that we would ideally like to see responsible governments in power everywhere in Africa and that this - more than anything else - will assist Africa's plight, but the trouble is that it could be a long time in coming and the starving people that I'm talking about have absolutely no say in what's happening, nor any power to prevent it. My argument, therefore, is that they shouldn't be left to suffer in the meantime, while we wait for political stability to be brought to the continent.


___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Old Post Jul-22-2005 06:53  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Renegade Click here to Send Renegade a Private Message Add Renegade to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

lol ahhh you point-for-point guys really know how to take the fun out of a thread

Old Post Jul-22-2005 15:17  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for josh4 Click here to Send josh4 a Private Message Add josh4 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

Explain to me again why it is that we keep throwing money and aid into the hands of some of these people?

Andrea Mitchell bitch slapped for asking a question

quote:
July 21, 2005 | 12:52 p.m. EDT

Editor's note: NBC's Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell was involved in an "incident" this morning in Sudan, as she tried to ask a question during a meeting between U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Sudanese President Omar el-Bashir. She recounted it to this blog editor while on the phone from Darfur in western Sudan.

‘There is no freedom of the press here’

Andrea Mitchell, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent

Things were not going well from the minute that Secretary Condoleezza Rice arrived in the Sudanese capital of Khartoum. Her motorcade got separated and her personal advisor, Jim Wilkinson, got slammed against a wall while he tried to bull his way into the meeting. They blocked all the other State Department officials from even attending this meeting between Rice and the president of Sudan. In fact, for the first six or seven minutes of this meeting, Rice and President el-Bashir couldn't talk because the Arabic translator was prevented from getting in. None of the other top officials ever got into the meeting, including U.S. Agency for International Development Administrator Andrew Natsios. So already there were apologies from Sudanese officials to U.S. officials. Things were not going well. And at that point, there were already problems over which reporters could go in and whether the American press corps could be part of a Sudanese press pool covering the photo opportunity. The State Department officials were insistent that the Americans be represented, as had previously been agreed to. Sudanese officials wanted to only let a camera in, but not permit any writers from newspapers or television. At one point, Sean McCormack, the assistant secretary for public affairs, said to his Sudanese counterpart, "I'll convey your desires about not permitting reporters to ask questions, but that's all I'll do. We have a free press." And his counterpart said, "There is no freedom of the press here." Which kind of told the whole story.

So by the time we finally did get in, there were Sudanese officials saying, "Don't ask any questions," and American officials saying, "No agreements. No deals." And we went in, and I asked President el-Bashir why, in essence, anyone should believe his promises when his government has said repeatedly that it will stop the violence and then it continues to support the militias that are doing the killing. At which point two guys came up behind me, two of his armed security guards, and grabbed me from behind and started pulling me out the door. I tried to keep my balance so that I didn't go down. And they shoved me out the door. Rice was furious and came back as soon as we got to the airport to leave for the refugee camp. She said she was very sorry that it happened and that she had demanded an apology from the Sudanese government. Within the hour, before we landed in northern Sudan, she received a call from the foreign minister apologizing. It was the third apology from the Sudanese that day. But two of them preceded the incident, which made everyone in the American delegation think that they weren't worth very much, the apologies. One of the comments from Wilkinson was that Diplomacy 101 says you don't mistreat your guests, especially not when you're trying to get them to restore Sudan's status, remove sanctions and take the country off the terror list.

All of this pales, obviously, in the context of why we're here, why Secretary Rice even came to Sudan, which is to try and do something about the horrendous killings, which the U.S. and Rice again yesterday called genocide... the displacement of two million people over the last two years, the burning of villages, the looting of livestock (which is the only means the Sudanese people have to survive). Rice is trying to focus, in this delicate balance, on the possibility for improvement, but many of the players are the bad guys who carried out these policies in the past, including President Omar el-Bashir, my new best friend.

Old Post Jul-22-2005 17:10  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Shakka Click here to Send Shakka a Private Message Add Shakka to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

^^^^^^

...and that's exactly my point as well.
How the hell can you deal with this kind of back-assward thinking??

I understand that there are innocent people starving but how long does this have to go on?
Philanthropy is just, but most philanthropy also goes towards finding a cure and a solution to the problem being supported, not just blinding feeding the problem itself.
It's a classic parasite and host situation. We don't want to kill the host but we don't want to feed the parasite either.
A solution must be found, but the parasite doesn't want to die either and unfortunately, in this analogy, the parasite is in control.


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jul-22-2005 23:47  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
smokeape
Lowland Trance Addict



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Heart of Dixie
Re: Blow it out your ass, Bono!

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
This guy has it right on.

Live 8 was a useless boondoggle


Agree, what a blow and a waste of the world's time.


[[[smoke]]]

Old Post Jul-23-2005 02:54 
Click Here to See the Profile for smokeape Click here to Send smokeape a Private Message Add smokeape to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Blow it out your ass, Bono!
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (2): « 1 [2]  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackKiller Tune!!!! [2004] [0]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackD-Pulse - July Sunset [2006]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 22:46.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!