quote:

Originally posted by apostrophe I'd say so. The only reason that democracy exists right now, is because there is a superior military force present enforcing it. Following the removal of trops (assuming they EVER leave ) I won't be surprised to see everything go back to how it was, proving once and for all this war on terror and bringing freedome to another country across the world was in fact not the smartest idea ever, and an unneccessary waste of money.

Amen case closed.

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer what if they dont want to be like Fuckin U.S? is that a problem?

I didnt say they were going to be like the US, i think anyone would love to be free and have a freedom of speach my friend, why are you being so fucking stupid and always againts anything you pathetic fuck. go back to iran thats where you deserve to be, with all of those fucked up people there, or might aswell fight the americans in iraq, i hope somebody fucking kills ur pathetic lame ass there.

quote:

Originally posted by gouuryella I didnt say they were going to be like the US, i think anyone would love to be free and have a freedom of speach my friend, why are you being so fucking stupid and always againts anything you pathetic fuck. go back to iran thats where you deserve to be, with all of those fucked up people there, or might aswell fight the americans in iraq, i hope somebody fucking kills ur pathetic lame ass there.

What I don't get is why does everyone need what the USA has, freedom of speech etc. Do you realise that for thousands of years, religion has shaped their country, it's government, and it's people? I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's their culture, it's how things are done, the way they have always done.

So I pose this question: Is it ok to destroy and mutilate a culture and it's religion? Fundamentally, this is what the USA is doing. Think early Dutch missionaries in Africa, for example.

quote:

Originally posted by gouuryella I didnt say they were going to be like the US, i think anyone would love to be free and have a freedom of speach my friend, why are you being so fucking stupid and always againts anything you pathetic fuck. go back to iran thats where you deserve to be, with all of those fucked up people there, or might aswell fight the americans in iraq, i hope somebody fucking kills ur pathetic lame ass there.

continue with this pathetic racist attitude and you'll most likely get banned.

p.s with that reply you finally showed how mature you really are and it shows that obviously you are not ready for political discussions.

so get lost or go back to COR

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quote:

Originally posted by apostrophe What I don't get is why does everyone need what the USA has, freedom of speech etc. Do you realise that for thousands of years, religion has shaped their country, it's government, and it's people? I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's their culture, it's how things are done, the way they have always done.

Dont even bother dude,he is too young to know things like that,btw very nicely put.

quote:

So I pose this question: Is it ok to destroy and mutilate a culture and it's religion?

you see to them it is all ok,because they are thinking hey we are fighting terrorism and not thinking what the consequences are.

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Apostrophe, you make a great point. I believe their religious values get in the way of the democracy we are trying to impose on them, that is an American brand of democracy. I don't understand, why has the U.S. taken it upon themselves to impose upon Iraq and as the trend seems, the rest of the world our way of life? Please, no flamming on the U.S., this is a serious question. Whatever happened to the days of "The business of America is America's business."

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quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Can the United States establish a stable, democratic government in Iraq?

Probably. For a democracy to be adopted, where it's never existed, it must be supported at the grass roots. It cannot be imposed from the top down. Otherwise, it will not succeed. Given this, i say 'probably' because i believe that a democracy exited prior to SH. In other words, it's not entirely new. But then again, it's still a top down approach.

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Last edited by bubble on Jul-28-2005 at 19:25

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings Apostrophe, you make a great point. I believe their religious values get in the way of the democracy we are trying to impose on them, that is an American brand of democracy. I don't understand, why has the U.S. taken it upon themselves to impose upon Iraq and as the trend seems, the rest of the world our way of life? Please, no flamming on the U.S., this is a serious question. Whatever happened to the days of "The business of America is America's business."

I grew up in a very international setting, surrounded by different races, cultures and morals. I have Muslim, Arab, Islamic, Chinese, American, Latin, European...etc friends surrounding me, all with different clashing cultural ideas. But yet in my experience, acceptance and understanding bridge the gaps between the difference, and lead to a common solution.

I have great appreciation for other's values and beliefs. Even though myself I am a white kid from the States, I view the USA from a distance, seeing it for it's pros and cons. I see it often as the rest of the world sees it - often times corrupt and inefficient. I agree, what right does the country to assume that it's system is the best? Let's hope somewhere in the future the USA learns to respect other countries politics and ideals even though they differ from their own.

A quick note on the USA trying to spread it's version of democracy. In my opinion, USA's democracy isn't even proper - the country is advertising fair elections, when the US's elections are far from fair! The politicians decide who their party's candidates are, while the public gets little choice in the matter! How hypocritcal is this? Trying to convert an entire countries government when it's own isn't even functioning according to it's founding Fathers??

There are too many in-house issues to be resolved to be prancing around the world sticking their nose in other countries business. I know this has been said before time and time again, but I say it again!

quote:

Originally posted by apostrophe I agree, what right does the country to assume that it's system is the best? Let's hope somewhere in the future the USA learns to respect other countries politics and ideals even though they differ from their own. A quick note on the USA trying to spread it's version of democracy. In my opinion, USA's democracy isn't even proper - the country is advertising fair elections, when the US's elections are far from fair! The politicians decide who their party's candidates are, while the public gets little choice in the matter! How hypocritcal is this? Trying to convert an entire countries government when it's own isn't even functioning according to it's founding Fathers?? There are too many in-house issues to be resolved to be prancing around the world sticking their nose in other countries business. I know this has been said before time and time again, but I say it again!

Awesome post dude.


we need more open minded people like you in the U.S.

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quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings Apostrophe, you make a great point. I believe their religious values get in the way of the democracy we are trying to impose on them, that is an American brand of democracy. I don't understand, why has the U.S. taken it upon themselves to impose upon Iraq and as the trend seems, the rest of the world our way of life? Please, no flamming on the U.S., this is a serious question.

The exact question I have been doing my dissertation on (and how it will effect Lebanon!)

Basically it is a neoconservative belief that disagrees with the previous American policy of dealing with dictators. Dictators cannot be trusted as they are fundamentally opposed to American values (see the power Saudi Arabia has over America - the neocons absolutely hate the Saudi Regime) That belief is coupled with a plan or ambition to mould a world order that is conductive to American interests which can only be protected in a democratic world. Its a fair belief to be honest but the way they go about it (ie preemptive military action) is imo counterproductive to their aims as it is not democratic and therefore they will have a problem imposing their view if they do not adhere to those same principles. The problem for neocons is that another fundamental (and imo greater belief they put a higher priority on over democracy promotion) is support for Israel.

Anyway, I dont agree that Arabs cannot handle democracy and I believe they want it. There is a base human nature that runs through us all and part of that imo is a desire to have a greater say in how we live our lives and democracy is a path to fulfilling that desire. I think its a completely orientalist view that says Islam is incompatable with democracy cos Christianity and Judaism are just as much incompatable as Islam but they seem to manage fine. Lebanon gives a great example of an Arab culture that has embraced democracy (before the civil war it was a democracy with democratic institutions and beliefs)

The U.S. is not establishing the government, the Iraqi people are. The U.S. is only there now for security purposes.

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George, do yourself a favor and go read Where the Right Went Wrong. This book is entirely about the neoconservative movement, and how they have come into power in the U.S. The author, Pat Buccahan, makes some very interesting points, especially how the neocons see America as a great empire. These people are twisted, and most of allhave no idea how to run an efficient government. What ever happened to the days of small government?

Apostrophe, I appreciate you sharing all that info, but don't think that your kind of background is neccessary in seeing U.S. the way you do. It just came off that way. If I misunderstood, I am sorry. The people of the U.S. do need a wake-up call. No one sees the U.S. aspirations for empire? Everybody wants to hate Bush and the Republicans, when they should hate Kerry and the Democrats more. Kerry didn't have the balls to come out and say 'We should not have gotten invovled in a war with Iraq'. Perhaps, he too is for American imperialism. I would not rule that out. We didn't find WMDS, Saddam was not aiding terrorists (at least to our knowledge, and if someone were to come up to you a few years ago and say "We are going to invade Iraq to force a democracy upon the country", would you support the war? The Democrats needed to take a hard stance on this issue, which would force people not to simply question can a democracy be formed, but was our presence neccessary in the first place? Furthermore, as apostrophe pointed out, do we not have more pressing issues at home? For once, I would like to see the focus of a president be first, and foremost on improving our lives rather than others.

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