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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Oh and if schools don't cover this, it is probably due to bad teachers, my teachers mentioned it and they weren't that good(those mofo's will be paid over 100,000 after 15yrs!)

Asian history is not covered in Brazil, that being the reason why I didn't study it at school, for example. Heck, we didn't even study about the mongol empire.

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I read this book last year in my spare time, thought it was an excellent read.

For those who compared Nanking to Nazi atrocities in USSR, the comparison is a little moot. Nazis racked up a much larger body count, such as the killing of 100,000+ people in 3 days at Babiy Yar, but they were nowhere near as brutal and sadistic as the Japanese Imperial Army at Nanking.

As for Iris Chang committing suicide, that was a tragedy in itself. From what I remember reading last year, she was doing research in the Philippines for her next book about WW II and the oral testimony from survivors was so harrowing and emotionally exhausting that she plunged into a deep depression upon her return to the states and committed suicide. She left a young child and a husband behind.

Details of the tragic death of Iris Chang (Zhāng Chúnrú) here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_Chang

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...gaze long into an abyss and the abyss also gazes into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche, _Beyond Good And Evil_, Aphorism 146

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I read that book. Extremely intense & graphic when depicting the inhumanity committed by Japanese solders to the Chinese. What they did to babies & women was appalling.

In some ways known as the Chinese Holocaust.

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Originally posted by Lira Now that's something we agree on, Shadowolf - considering the fact that we all descend from Africans anyway, they're are part European indeed, as we all are part Asian (and African) as well. Claiming that the Japanese war atrocities cannot be compared to European atrocities such as the holocaust in terms of cruelty sounds a bit naive, if that's what you're saying. Besides, if you're talking about culture and science, Japan has had a quite impressive educational system since before the industrial revolution (a system that European nations could only dream of, back in that time), and they even had a rather sophisticated philosophical system, which reflected its society, although different than its Euro-American counterpart.

Yes, it is true that when compared at the time around the middle ages European cultures were generally inferior to those of the far east, and even to those of the muslim world. The thing that I think Yoepus is trying to say, however, is that people compare the current western culture with the midieval culture of the far eastern countries and hold a romantic view towards that era. Granted that the current culture does have flaws of its own, but overall it does have more advantages than flaws.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 even to those of the muslim world

even to those of the muslim world? You obviously don't much about the Muslim Empire (i.e. the time of the Caliphate, utto the 13th Imam) do you? The foundation of modern science and mathematics was laid down by the Muslims. Hmm, what a backward civilzation.

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Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z even to those of the muslim world? You obviously don't much about the Muslim Empire (i.e. the time of the Caliphate, utto the 13th Imam) do you? The foundation of modern science and mathematics was laid down by the Muslims. Hmm, what a backward civilzation.

The word "even" was there because of the current state of matters and not because of the state of matters that existed 800 years ago. I am aware that at the time muslim world was light years away from the christian regions, especially ones that once belonged to the western Roman empire. Although, not meaning to reduce their achievements, they did take a part of their mathematical and scientific ideas from India.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Although, not meaning to reduce their achievements, they did take a part of their mathematical and scientific ideas from India.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

To what exactly are you referring?

Cheers,
-N

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quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yes, it is true that when compared at the time around the middle ages European cultures were generally inferior to those of the far east, and even to those of the muslim world. The thing that I think Yoepus is trying to say, however, is that people compare the current western culture with the midieval culture of the far eastern countries and hold a romantic view towards that era. Granted that the current culture does have flaws of its own, but overall it does have more advantages than flaws.

Oh, I guess I stressed the wrong part of my post, and I didn't really mean to say any of the cultures were in a later stage. My debate was over the following point:

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Originally posted by Yoepus Yup, one can't forget that although Japanese society had the guise of a western civilized nation it was not such. It had only recently westernized and held strong barbaric and savage traditions.

• In this post, it seems like Japan was not civilised before Euro-American contact (as if the link between "western" and "civilised" were mandatory), which is the reason why I brought the whole educational system thing up: Japan already had a very sophisticated society, a very competent educational system and an impressive urbanisation level, so it's fair to say they were civilised as well.
  
• Before and after the contact with Europeans and Americans, the levels of savagery in Japanese society weren't much different from any "Western" counterparts - probably the biggest contrast was the late ending of the Japanese feudal era.
  

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I agree that savage and barbaric are perhaps not the right words, because japanese culture of the time was just as savage and barbaric in its customs as that of the greeks, the Roman empire, and midieval Europe in regards to slavery, murders, opression, feudalism, women rights and so on. Again, it's a measure of an old society by today's standards. The japanese, however, did keep some remnants of those traditions a bit longer than the western countries, but the difference was not that great. Especially when we consider that slavery was abolished in the US only 150 years ago and that women were allowed to vote less than 100 years ago even in most advanced societies.

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