I think you have a serious choice to make at a point typically right after high school (i had the choice with the recruiter calling me every day). The choice is either sign on the dotted line and join the army and in essense entrust your life in the decisions made from some desk thousands of miles away or go to college or work. If you signed on that dotted line you made a calculated decision to put your life at risk with possibility of death.

Sure people don't sign up to be gung ho gi joes but to get money but then there is the risk that a war may break out, which in this case it did.

I guess if there was no war the question would be is it worth hundreds of billions of dollars to have hundreds of thousands of soldiers and billions of dollars of equipment sitting around doing nothing.

So the war may not be worth a human soldiers life but that argument is nulled because the whole point of the soldier is to put their life in harm's way for whatever their superior tells them to do.

___________________

People don't want to die for something unless they truly believe in it. And, regardless of the lack of honesty in our lives even towards ourselves, I seriously doubt most Americans would be willing to sacrifice their lives for the War in Iraq. When the stakes are high, even many people who support the War will probably not want to die for it. People can bullshit themselves all they like about how noble their cause is but that bullshiting usually stops when they have everything to loose. Remember vietnam? The public was basically like, Why are we sending our sons to die? But I don't believe that time has come yet. It really depends on how long this war is going to last and how many American lives will be lost, as it's pretty obvious no one really gives a shit about how many Iraqis die. Acocrding to
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ :

Min: 23,589
Max: 26,705

That's a shitload of people.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

@ Neil: Do you have the full size image of that tripy pic in your sig?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid ogvh5150 I hate telling you this but I don't think it really matters voting in your poll. I mean don't you prefer my opinion?

That's why there's a neat invention called the reply button. It has been known to work for some. While others use it with no remorse and leave troubled statements (not you just others).

You can vote or not. Or you can write what's on your mind. It doesn't matter in the PDD forum.

You comments will be viewed.

quote:

Originally posted by Spacey Orange not mine, but if some fool wants to risk his life so that i can buy gas at a ridiculously low price, then let him.

It is my assumption that here in the US I am paying for gas that is being used in Iraq by military personel and their vehicles.

Quite the opposite of what anyone expected for this war.

___________________

Can we do a comparison for the results of this poll (for those that voted yes) and that for the Liberal vs. Conservative poll (for those that identified themselves as Conservative?)

Quite a disparity!



"War is grand as long as it isn't me or mine going."
-Mark Twain?
(Finalist for the motto of the USA, eventually beaten out by E pluribus unum)


-N

___________________

Join the campaign to ban political sigs in the Political Discussion / Debate forum!

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z @ Neil: Do you have the full size image of that tripy pic in your sig?

Prepare to make your eyes melt

Excuse the single off topic post.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu Can we do a comparison for the results of this poll (for those that voted yes) and that for the Liberal vs. Conservative poll (for those that identified themselves as Conservative?) Quite a disparity! "War is grand as long as it isn't me or mine going." -Mark Twain? (Finalist for the motto of the USA, eventually beaten out by E pluribus unum) -N

Go start one. Just double the questions and segregate them like this:

e.g.:
I am a conservative and no the war in Iraq is not worth my life if I joined the military.

I'm nonpartisan so I would have to abstain that poll.

___________________

Another off topic post: Holy crap, that is trippy!

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Die for that? NO.
phuck, im hypnotized

Die for Afghanistan? HELL YES im from NYC, die for Iraq? most likely not.

___________________
My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.

I voted yes, though retired from military I am still working for the Army. You agree you pay the ultimate sacrifice by joining up in the military to defend our nation. We place you in harm's way. Units heading into a war zone are pretty well prepared not to die for their country even though they are headed into dangerous environs, but war is war and shit happens no matter how well prepared you are. You just hope you don't get killed for something stupid and avoidable instead of the unavoidable. The unavoidable circumstances, particularly IEDs, may start to look like avoidable circumstances these days after our experience with them. Ambushes are ambushes though, unexpected and sure to bring casualties, since they are initiated by the enemy on their own terms. Only avoidance is to eliminate the enemy as a threat if it's at all possible to hunt them down and kill them at a point in time so they don't have the means to launch an attack.


[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape I voted yes, though retired from military I am still working for the Army. You agree you pay the ultimate sacrifice by joining up in the military to defend our nation.

Sorry, but this is an idiotic and very dangerous attitude.

It's nonsense masquerading mostly as ill-informed patriotism, and similar mindlessness is getting a lot of destitute, under-educated southern US males uselessly killed because they don't know any better.

The time of automaton soldiers being used as political tools by self-interested bureaucrats is passing quickly, as a direct result of the very bad experiences of said soldiers and their families. Heard about this woman chasing Bush around for a face-to-face talk after her son was killed in-country? See the 'evolution of patriotism' in that woman in Moore's Fahrenheit 9-11, after she had her son killed?

Suddenly war and patriotism isn't so grand when it's your children that are being blown up and/or approaching the age of 18, hmm?

The USA is having a very serious personnel crisis, where it cannot recruit infantry fast enough to replace losses and rotated forces, and those it is recruiting are woefully undertrained and not competent for the combat arms roles they are being forced into. The result is that trained and experienced soldiers are being forced to pull multiple tours of duty with little rest, and it's casuing psychoses in more than a few. The reserves are also already overtaxed.

Most semi-educated people signing up for the army are doing so for the perks -- they want the scholarships/promised money for college, they want the practical training in life and professional skills that will help them seek better lives outside the army, and/or they want the discipline and regimented lifestyles for the betterment of their characters and/or for the prestige of their resumes. No small number sign up to simply get a better standard of living than the destitution they face at home. But only the truly stupid sign up today with the intention of "dying for one's country," and when you see such a person you better damn well hope they aren't put in your trench!

We don't live in a time anymore when soldiers (other than US Marines) are going to jump into the meatgrinder because they're ordered to do so. It is not realistic to expect people to sign their name on the recruitment forms 'to die for a pointless cause to be determined at a later date.' To expect them to is asinine.

The army need intelligent, self-confident, and dynamic individuals that can and will develop advanced problem solving and management skills that will help them to accomplish their missions *by staying alive.* Unfortunately such people usually end up in exclusive and elitist special forces units. But this same attitude needs to be instilled in all line infantry as well, not just the 75th Rangers, or 10th Mountain, or whoever. Intelligent soldiers win the day, not asshole patriots trained to be unthinking cannon fodder, going wherever and doing whatever they're told.

People such as you need to go look up what happened to the central authority when the legions of Rome were treated as fodder and they started to think better of it.

Soldiers sign up to be soldiers; their business is killing and fighting. Their business is not fighting for reasons or against people that are not legitmate threats. If you don't or can't know the difference, you have no business carrying a rifle.

Take thee to the galley, thine MOS be "navy cook."

-N

___________________

Join the campaign to ban political sigs in the Political Discussion / Debate forum!

Last edited by TheNobleEu on Aug-26-2005 at 17:24