quote:

Originally posted by josh4 and you have a stick up your ass

+1

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

11,000 Reserve Components alone mobilized for disaster right now, will hit 20,000 by this weekend. Naval fleet with supplies enroute. It just takes a few days to mobilize forces at their home station, get people and equipment ready and be given a specific mission (i.e. place to go, what to do when they get there) before they deploy. Hell, the hurricane only struck two days ago.

Don't forget, there's a large military installation at Fort Polk which will probably be the staging ground for much of the relief effort in New Orleans and surrounding areas impacted by the hurricane.

For all you naysayers, you have no clue what it takes to move an Army.


[[[smoke]]]

Last edited by smokeape on Sep-01-2005 at 00:21

Its clearly seen none of you have lived through a hurricane, nor under those conditions to make statements that makes troops coming at the end of this week such a nice thing.. Its freaking deteriorating conditions, with temperatures in the 90's plus Humidity, with no water and no food and no media and no reasoning of WTF is going on.. This is a large scale thing thats needs the quickest assistance possible.. I live in Florida, and Ive had to deal with something similar for only 3 days, and let me tell you.. its the worst crap anyone could go through.

___________________
Upcoming:

Michael Andrews Feat. Gary Jules - Mad World (Grayed Out Mix)

quote:

For all you naysayers, you have no clue what it takes to move an Army.

Agreed.

I remember reading that in WW2 for every soldier in combat there were something like 10 (roughly) support troops!

This isn't quite the same, but it's pretty close. The infrastructure of a modern military force is massive and cumbersome...it takes time to get it in place.

Last edited by donnybrasco on Sep-01-2005 at 06:50

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape 11,000 Reserve Components alone mobilized for disaster right now, will hit 20,000 by this weekend. Naval fleet with supplies enroute. It just takes a few days to mobilize forces at their home station, get people and equipment ready and be given a specific mission (i.e. place to go, what to do when they get there) before they deploy. Hell, the hurricane only struck two days ago. Don't forget, there's a large military installation at Fort Polk which will probably be the staging ground for much of the relief effort in New Orleans and surrounding areas impacted by the hurricane. For all you naysayers, you have no clue what it takes to move an Army. [[[smoke]]]

Right, but the problem with this disaster is one quiet well known to the military - rapid and accurate BDA (battle damage assesement).

The truth is we only had a clue of how bad it was yesterday and how bad it really was going to get this morning.

Yet looking at pictures of some of the more remote areas we should have known this sooner and so been able to act sooner.

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo ponder this genius. the Army Corps of Engineers had over 30 years to figure out how to keep New Orleans from flooding since the last CAT 5. fiscal 2006? too lttle, too late IMO.

Thanks, dear twit, for pointing out the obvious. I don't deny that they could have done more over the last 30 years, and according to the Army Corps. of Engineers they decided to prepare for a Cat 3 rather than a CAT 5 as a consequence to a cost-effective basis.

So my question unrelated to Bush's cutbacks are, why the fuck did the ACE not simply prepare for the worst case scenario here? Cost effective my ass - how much is this fucking disaster going to cost us now? Lovin' the penny pinchin' all around that most certainly dates back to more than just this Administration.

So does that excuse this Administration, yet again dear twit? Shall we continue to go to the old GOP line that it's "all Clinton's fault"? Or does blame get placed onto this Administration whatsofucking ever in your eyes? Even a partial blame? For example:

quote:

Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years have repeatedly denied full funding for hurricane preparation and flood control. That has delayed construction of levees around the city and stymied an ambitious project to improve drainage in New Orleans' neighborhoods. For instance, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for this fiscal year to pay for hurricane-protection projects around Lake Pontchartrain. The Bush administration countered with $3.9 million, and Congress eventually provided $5.7 million, according to figures provided by the office of U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.). ..."I'm not saying it wouldn't still be flooded, but I do feel that if it had been totally funded, there would be less flooding than you have," said Michael Parker, a former Republican Mississippi congressman who headed the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, when he was ousted after publicly criticizing a Bush administration proposal to cut the corps' budget. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ll=chi-news-hed

And lo and behold that guy who stated the above was fired for being critical of Bush's cuts:

http://orig.clarionledger.com/news/0203/07/m05.html

Strange that, huh?

And how about FEMA itself? How's being "systematically downgraded and all but dismantled by the Department of Homeland Security?"

Want some more?:

quote:

"This year it was announced that FEMA is to 'officially' lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2901445_pf.html

More can be found here about how this war has affected FEMA and the Army Corp. Engineers:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/e...t_id=1001051313

Here's some choice quotes from the Times-Picayune in June 8th, 2004:

quote:

For the first time in 37 years, federal budget cuts have all but stopped major work on the New Orleans area's east bank hurricane levees, a complex network of concrete walls, metal gates and giant earthen berms that won't be finished for at least another decade. "I guess people look around and think there's a complete system in place, that we're just out here trying to put icing on the cake," said Mervin Morehiser, who manages the "Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity" levee project for the Army Corps of Engineers. "And we aren't saying that the sky is falling, but people should know that this is a work in progress, and there's more important work yet to do before there is a complete system in place." ... "I can't tell you exactly what that could mean this hurricane season if we get a major storm," Naomi said. "It would depend on the path and speed of the storm, the angle that it hits us. "But I can tell you that we would be better off if the levees were raised, . . . and I think it's important and only fair that those people who live behind the levee know the status of these projects." ... The Bush administration's proposed fiscal 2005 budget includes only $3.9 million for the east bank hurricane project. Congress likely will increase that amount, although last year it bumped up the administration's $3 million proposal only to $5.5 million. "I needed $11 million this year, and I got $5.5 million," Naomi said. "I need $22.5 million next year to do everything that needs doing, and the first $4.5 million of that will go to pay four contractors who couldn't get paid this year." ... The challenge now, said emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri in Jefferson Parish and Terry Tullier in New Orleans, is for southeast Louisiana somehow to persuade those who control federal spending that protection from major storms and flooding are matters of homeland security. "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay," Maestri said. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." ... Levee-raising is only part of the flood-related work that has stopped since the federal government began reducing Corps of Engineers appropriations in 2001, as more money was diverted to homeland security, the fight against terrorism and the war in Iraq So let's see, systematic cuts to FEMA, cuts to levee and pump construction around New Orleans, and nat'l coordination and response to natural disasters. and this all enacted by the Bush Administration. Meanwhile, 3 minutes before Bush actually addressed the nation about the hurricane yesterday, we see the HHS urging its employees to get their groove on for Bush's and the Pentagon's upcoming War-Kicks-Ass-9/11 party: [QUOTE]From: Announcements to all U.S. DHHS Employees [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of News, HHS (HHS/OS) Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Commemoration of Patriot Day In twelve days, we will commemorate Patriot Day, a day to remember the tragic events of September 11, 2001, a day to honor members of the Armed Forces currently serving at home and abroad, and a day to reiterate our commitment to the freedoms we enjoy. I will honor Patriot Day by participating in the Freedom Walk, a memorial event sponsored by the Department of Defense. I invite you as employees of the Department of Health and Human Services to join me. The Freedom Walk begins at 10 a.m. in the Pentagon's south parking lot, winds two miles through Arlington National Cemetery and over the Potomac River, and ends at the Reflecting Pool on the National Mall where country music star Clint Black will perform. The walk is free, but people must register by visiting www.AmercaSupportsYou.mil September 11 marked a change in the way we view our world, our nation and ourselves. The betterment of ourselves and our country is our response. In whatever way you choose to commemorate the horrendous acts of early September four years ago, let us once again renew our gratitude for the freedoms we enjoy and reaffirm our commitment to tolerance, peace and liberty throughout the world.

Let's see, what else? Oh, it took a mere 4 days for us to finally send the U.S. military to this disaster:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901...ina_military_dc

And let's not fucking forget that our dear President stayed on vacation for 2 days during this fucking disaster. What was he doing during that time?:



And the NYTimes editorial fucking nailed Bush's inane speech yesterday:

quote:

George W. Bush gave one of the worst speeches of his life yesterday, especially given the level of national distress and the need for words of consolation and wisdom. In what seems to be a ritual in this administration, the president appeared a day later than he was needed. He then read an address of a quality more appropriate for an Arbor Day celebration: a long laundry list of pounds of ice, generators and blankets delivered to the stricken Gulf Coast. He advised the public that anybody who wanted to help should send cash, grinned, and promised that everything would work out in the end.... Sacrifices may be necessary to make sure that all these things happen in an orderly, efficient way. But this administration has never been one to counsel sacrifice. And nothing about the president's demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html

As does Newsweek:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9148526/site/newsweek/

Fuck man, only about 5% of his speech was about the hurricane response. What the motherfuck?!?!?!?

So spare me the utter bullshit and asinine attempts to shift blame onto someone else. This president, as usual, has his head right up his ass, and has more than his fair share of blame.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo in addition to the thousands of Guard troops. eight ships of the mightiest Navy ever devised are on there way, including the U.S.S. Bataan. the U.S.N.S. Comfort is being considered. but don't let that stop you from jumping on Opus's hate-Bush propaganda wagon.

Ahh yes, "propaganda wagon". You're so cute when you spin so fast. Kinda like a little kid who falls down from dizziness.

I saw that article too:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901...ina_military_dc

Amazing, really. It was only 4 days after the disaster did they decide to send their mighty ships. Imagine, just imagine for a mere second what it would have been like to send these ships 3 days earlier when they noticed the hurricane was, oh, about as big as a fucking planet? How about 2 days earlier? Keep in mind how long it takes these boats to get there.

I mean, I know it would have been difficult for Bush to cancel his vacation so darn early and send these ships earlier - but I do think he has a handy-dandy portable fax machine, right?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

I mean, hey, Bush really is there for you people of New Orleans. He's there, right next to you, just as he was in NY with the firemen.

Well, maybe not "there" there, but 5000 feet above you is good enough, right?:



And more on FEMA around the time of Clinton:

quote:

Being prepared for a disaster is basic emergency management, disaster experts say. For example, in the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby, said James Lee Witt, who was FEMA director under President Clinton. Federal officials said a hospital ship would leave from Baltimore on Friday. “These things need to be planned and prepared for; it just doesn’t look like it was,” said Witt, a former Arkansas disaster chief who won bipartisan praise on Capitol Hill during his tenure. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm

Times have sure changed, haven't they?

funny how McClellan dodged questions pertaining to funding today:

quote:

REPORTER: There’s a lot of discussion going on about the funding of projects prior to this, whether projects in New Orleans in particular were underfunded because of the Iraq war or for other reasons. Do you find any of this criticism legitimate? Do you think there is any second guessing to be done now about priorities given that [a disaster in] New Orleans was sort of obvious to a lot of the experts? MCCLELLAN: As I have indicated, this is not a time for politics. This is a time for the nation to come together for those in the Gulf Coast region and that’s where our focus is. This is not a time for finger-pointing or politics. And I think the last thing that the people who have been displaced or the people who have been affected need is people seeking partisan gain in Washington. So if that’s what you’re talking about, that’s one thing. Now, if you’re talking about specific areas, I would be glad to talk about some of those, if that’s what you want. REPORTER: I’m talking about policy REPORTER: One project, for instance, is the one where people felt they needed $60 million in the current ‘06 fiscal year, and they were given $10 million. Those types of projects. And a lot — MCCLELLAN: Which project is this? REPORTER: Southeast Louisiana Flood Control. MCCLELLAN: Flood control has been a priority of this administration from day one.

I want him on my dodgeball team!

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Well, Bush did cut funding:

quote:

Aug. 31, 2005 | Biblical in its uncontrolled rage and scope, Hurricane Katrina has left millions of Americans to scavenge for food and shelter and hundreds to thousands reportedly dead. With its main levee broken, the evacuated city of New Orleans has become part of the Gulf of Mexico. But the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature. A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late. The New Orleans Times-Picayune, which before the hurricane published a series on the federal funding problem, and whose presses are now underwater, reported online: "No one can say they didn't see it coming ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation." Site Pass Presented by - - - - - - - - - - - - The Bush administration's policy of turning over wetlands to developers almost certainly also contributed to the heightened level of the storm surge. In 1990, a federal task force began restoring lost wetlands surrounding New Orleans. Every two miles of wetland between the Crescent City and the Gulf reduces a surge by half a foot. Bush had promised "no net loss" of wetlands, a policy launched by his father's administration and bolstered by President Clinton. But he reversed his approach in 2003, unleashing the developers. The Army Corps of Engineers and the Environmental Protection Agency then announced they could no longer protect wetlands unless they were somehow related to interstate commerce. In response to this potential crisis, four leading environmental groups conducted a joint expert study, concluding in 2004 that without wetlands protection New Orleans could be devastated by an ordinary, much less a Category 4 or 5, hurricane. "There's no way to describe how mindless a policy that is when it comes to wetlands protection," said one of the report's authors. The chairman of the White House's Council on Environmental Quality dismissed the study as "highly questionable," and boasted, "Everybody loves what we're doing." http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumen...tion/index.html

Although in fairness it's not entirely clear if full funding would have prevented the disaster in its entirety:

quote:

Sept. 1, 2005 | WASHINGTON -- Eric Tolbert, a former top disaster response official in the Bush administration, knew a calamity like Hurricane Katrina would be coming, sooner or later. And he also knew that the Federal Emergency Management Agency, where he worked until February, was not ready to properly respond. There were too few full-time employees, not enough contracts in place to provide assistance, and a lack of money to do proper pre-planning. The added burden of the war on terror, he says, diverted funds away from FEMA's core mission. "FEMA had to compete and had to help finance the creation of the Department of Homeland Security," Tolbert, who now works for PBS&J, a private contractor, said Thursday morning. "They were taking chunks of money out of the budget. We always referred to it as taxes." Last summer, for instance, Tolbert said FEMA staged a "tabletop exercise" in Baton Rouge, La., to gauge how well it would respond if a Category 3 hurricane hit New Orleans. Officials learned a lot from the role-play, says Tolbert, and then returned to their offices to create a new plan to respond to an actual disaster in the region. "Unfortunately, we were not able to finish the plan," Tolbert said. The funding for it ran out. Site Pass Presented by FEMA is not the only agency that found itself bled of required funding by White House decisions after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. Shortly after the attacks, the Army Corps of Engineers found itself facing deep cuts in funding for the largest flood control and drainage program in the New Orleans area. In the first full budget year after the attacks, the Bush administration funded the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA, at only 20 percent of the Corps' request of $100 million. In fiscal year 2004, the White House funding came in at 17 percent of the request. For each of these years, Congress, with the support of the Louisiana delegation, appropriated more money, but funding still came in far below the requirements. Work was delayed. Contractors worked without pay. Whole projects were put off. Local project managers complained that New Orleans was competing with the war in Iraq for funding. "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle Homeland Security and the war in Iraq," Walter Maestri, the emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the Times-Picayune in 2004. Of the $500 million requested for levees, pumping stations and new drainage canals between 2001 and 2005, only $249 million passed out of Congress. As recently as March, the Corps warned in a briefing memo that the funding shortfalls "will significantly increase the cost of the project, delay project completion and delay project benefits." "If the Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, there is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in a much better position to remove the water on the streets once the pumps start working," says Hunter Johnston, a lobbyist for Johnston and Associates who worked to secure the money. It is too early to tell, however, whether the additional funding would have prevented the levee breeches and overruns that have flooded New Orleans. Scientists, journalists and public officials have been warning for decades that New Orleans could not withstand a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. Even SELA, which was started in the mid-1990s after flooding caused billions in damage, was designed to protect against smaller storms, though planners said it would reduce damages of "larger events." "If you had engineered everything in America for a Category 5 hurricane, you could not have built anything," said Jimmy Hayes, a former Republican congressman from Louisiana, who now lobbies for federal funding. "There is never enough money." According to Michael Zumstein, a Corps official working to drain New Orleans, both of the major levee breeches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle. "It's just the law of physics, that's all," he said, noting that the system was designed to withhold a slow-moving Category 2 or a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a Category 4 storm when it hit land Monday morning. He said an unexpected break at the 17th Street Canal occurred 700 feet south of a bridge where the Corps recently completed a troubled construction project. Flooding also occurred on the east side of New Orleans, in the St. Bernard Parish, an area that environmentalists have long warned would be susceptible to flooding because of a poorly designed canal built in the 1960s that joins the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico. Since 1998, local politicians have been demanding that the so-called Mississippi River Gulf Outlet be closed, in part because it was allowing salt water to destroy marshland, increasing the danger of a storm surge. Both the Clinton and the Bush administrations have been slow to respond to those demands, and earlier this week, the storm surge topped levees flooding the parish, said Zumstein. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2...ding/index.html

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well, Bush did cut funding: Although in fairness it's not entirely clear if full funding would have prevented the disaster in its entirety:

I just ran across that article right when I got home tonight. In all fairness, I think that is important to point Tolbert's article out, especially this:

quote:

It is too early to tell, however, whether the additional funding would have prevented the levee breaches and overruns that have flooded New Orleans. Scientists, journalists and public officials have been warning for decades that New Orleans could not withstand a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. Even SELA, which was started in the mid-1990s after flooding caused billions in damage, was designed to protect against smaller storms, though planners said it would reduce damages of "larger events." "If you had engineered everything in America for a Category 5 hurricane, you could not have built anything," said Jimmy Hayes, a former Republican congressman from Louisiana, who now lobbies for federal funding. "There is never enough money." According to Michael Zumstein, a Corps official working to drain New Orleans, both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle. "It's just the law of physics, that's all," he said, noting that the system was designed to withhold a slow-moving Category 2 or a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a Category 4 storm when it hit land Monday morning. He said an unexpected break at the 17th Street Canal occurred 700 feet south of a bridge where the Corps recently completed a troubled construction project. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2.../levee_funding/

I did concede this point earlier, so I'll stress it again. However, as you have alluded to here and in the other thread, the funding cuts done by this Administration may not have been a complete cure, but they sure as hell could have helped out a lot:

quote:

WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Bush administration funding cuts forced federal engineers to delay improvements on the levees, floodgates and pumping stations that failed to protect New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina's floodwaters, agency documents showed on Thursday. The former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation's waterways, said the damage in New Orleans probably would have been much less extensive had flood-control efforts been fully funded over the years. "Levees would have been higher, levees would have been bigger, there would have been other pumps put in," said Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who headed the engineering agency from 2001 to 2002. "I'm not saying it would have been totally alleviated but it would have been less than the damage that we have got now." http://today.reuters.com/investing/...INA-FUNDING.XML

and

quote:

Engineers' warnings and pleas for money went unheeded By Andrew C. Revkin and Christopher Drew The New York Times FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2005 NEW YORK The 17th Street levee that gave way and led to the flooding of New Orleans was part of an intricate, aging system of barriers and pumps that was so chronically underfinanced that senior regional officials of the Army Corps of Engineers complained about it publicly for years. Often leading the chorus was Alfred Naomi, a senior project manager for the corps and a 30-year veteran of efforts to waterproof a city built on slowly sinking mud, surrounded by water and periodically a target of great storms. Naomi grew particularly frustrated this year as the Gulf Coast braced for what forecasters said would be an intense hurricane season and a nearly simultaneous $71 million cut was announced in the New Orleans district budget to guard against such storms. He called the cut drastic in an article in the magazine New Orleans City Business. In an interview Wednesday night, Naomi said the cuts had made it impossible to complete contracts for vital upgrades that were part of the long-term plan to renovate the system. This week, amid news of the widening breach in the 17th Street canal, he realized that the decades-long string of near misses had ended. "A breach under these conditions was ultimately not surprising," he said. "I had hoped that we had overdesigned it to a point that it would not fail. But you can overdesign only so much and then a failure has to come." http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.p.../news/flood.php

So again, I concede this problem stretched back a ways, but this Administration does some shared blame on these vital cuts.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Hey lookie...

It's the US NATIONAL GUARD...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...er_050901063635

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."