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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > Christian School Expels Daughter of Lesbians
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Jem_hadar
I remember...



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Pandora (South of Nowhere)

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
But they're right - it's not a civil rights matter.

I realize that many today are more liberal with respect to homosexuality, but our constitution states that these people have a right to practice their religion, and they do. Remember, we're guaranteed freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

I think it's downright silly that they did this, and I'm sure it is very upsetting to some people to hear that, but pinning it down as "offensive" is crossing that fine line between sympathy for the girl/family and intolerance to the beliefs of those running the school.

And I'm sure someone's going to bring up the fact that the Christian schools get government funding and therefore don't have the same rights that a private organization would... so hopefully I can pre-empt that by reminding those people that I don't think *any* religious schools should be getting government funding.


No, I agree with your point and always have. It upset me, yet I do realize why it happened and can't nay-say for that reason.

I posted in haste yesterday.


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Old Post Sep-25-2005 18:38  Canada
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Jayx1
Prime Minister of TOTA



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Socialist People's Republic Of Canada

as disgusting as these actions are, it's well within their right to do so. Their religion (or at least how they interpret it) forbids homosexuality. If you don't believe that homosexuality is wrong then you should not subscribe to that religion nor go to that school. Why should they change their ways because you don't happen to agree with them? The school or the church isnt telling these people that they cant be lesbians. What they are saying is that they choose not to associate with people who are. This is a far cry from the lesbians who are demanding that the church behave differently point blank without any consideration to their beliefs. If the lesbians wants respect for their lifestyle then they should give the same respect to other's lifestyles.

Some rights cases are wirthwhile but this one is completely useless. Kind of reminds me how they had to close the eglinton theatre because some idiot sued them because he was disabled and couldnt get up the stairs. Meanwhile pretty much every other theatre was handicapped enabled. They had to close the theatre because due to the way it was built, there was no way they could build an elevator. So lost is a 70 year piece of history forever thanks to stupidity.


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quote:
Originally posted by jester
Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Last edited by Jayx1 on Sep-25-2005 at 18:51

Old Post Sep-25-2005 18:46  Canada
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Jem_hadar
I remember...



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Pandora (South of Nowhere)

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
as disgusting as these actions are, it's well within their right to do so. Their religion (or at least how they interpret it) forbids homosexuality. If you don't believe that homosexuality is wrong then you should not subscribe to that religion nor go to that school. Why should they change their ways because you don't happen to agree with them? The school or the church isnt telling these people that they cant be lesbians. What they are saying is that they choose not to associate with people who are. This is a far cry from the lesbians who are demanding that the church behave differently point blank.


My belief as well.


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Old Post Sep-25-2005 18:50  Canada
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Sean Cassidy
WIKKID! WIKKID! WIKKID!



Registered: Jan 2005
Location: TORONTO



MY general thoughts.......


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Old Post Sep-25-2005 18:52 
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Jayx1
Prime Minister of TOTA



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Socialist People's Republic Of Canada

quote:
Originally posted by naesean3


MY general thoughts.......


agreed but laws and lawsuits wont solve that problem. And couldnt you argue that the lesbians are also being narrow minded? They seem to be taking the "my way or the highway" approach here since the christian school is only one of hundreds of options for schooling. Why cant she just go somewhere else and leave the christians alone? They seem to be willing to leave her alone and live and let live.

I dont support anti-gay views at all. But i do support the right for people to believe in what they believe. Forcing the church to accept lesbianism would be just as bad as if the church would be forcing heterosexuality on lesbians.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Old Post Sep-25-2005 18:56  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by crazedcanuck
However my point in terms of this school was it admitted the girl under the condition's in their admissions policy, and found her and her family to be fit enough for entry. They then terminated her education under the same terms that they had recently enrolled her. This fact could leave the school wide open in court, because strategically they've screwed themselves. Also the fact that the girl was expelled after her lesbian mother was reprimanded at a school event for shouting/cheering will hurt the school's positon. The family lawyers could easily paint a picture that it was about $$$, and the loss of enrollment fees for the school moreso than religous policy.

As I pointed out earlier, I whole-heartedly back the position that the school should refund her money. Strictly under terms of contract, I believe the school was wrong, and if they wish to cancel that contract then they should give back what they took as compensation.

In terms of contractual law I agree with you. And this is a contractual issue, not a civil rights issue.


quote:
A business that is privately owned, but makes services to accomodate the public is privately OWNED perhaps, but doesn't give you the right to act under your own set of laws.

Sorry but what exactly do you mean by "public?" Doesn't EVERY business offer its services to the "public?" That makes no sense. The word public in U.S. law refers in no uncertain terms to institutions owned or run by the government - NOT private organizations - no matter who they "serve" or "accomodate". Public means publicly funded, i.e. by taxpayer money. It sounds to me like you are trying to twist the word public so it can apply to anything and anyone.

The school acted well within the law. Perhaps they violated a contract, but this type of "discrimination" isn't prohibited by any state or federal law that I know of, and I don't really care what the U.N. has to say about it (and neither does the school).


quote:
And as for bigotry being protected, it is as an opinion, but as the section of the US. Constitution I pointed out states, not when it comes to publicly administering services, which includes privately owned businesses that provide services to the public for a fee.

Ignoring the gross misuse of the word "public" for the moment... you may say that something is protected as an opinion and not an action, but other than semantics, there is no difference between the two.

What is the difference between a company turning down a white applicant vs. a black applicant? If the issue comes under legal scrutiny, the question that is actually being asked is, what was the employer thinking when he/she turned this person down. Bigotry is a mental process and does not exist physically. The HR manager didn't turn down this candidate *specifically* because he was black... he turned the candidate down because he has incorrect or unfair preconceptions about blacks. He turned down this candidate because he suspected him to be lazy, or incompetent, or a criminal, because in his mind he has the illusion that all black people fit into those categories.

Think rationally about this for a minute. Bigots may hate people because of their colour or race in the sense of "making a long story short", but really they harbour these emotions because they buy into some sort of stereotype. Anti-semitists hate Jews because they believe Jews are greedy cheapskates who have formed a worldwide conspiracy. Christians (and other organized religions) hate homosexuals because they believe homosexuality is an abomination against nature and that anyone who would practice such an act cannot possibly have any moral fiber.

I'm not questioning the irrationality and stupidity of these beliefs, but legislating against bigotry as an action is, when put into practice, the same thing as legislating against bigotry as a thought.


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Old Post Sep-25-2005 20:00  Canada
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crazedcanuck
Dance 4 Jebus



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Red Deer, AB

In posting my positon, with limited reference to other's posts from the other site things sort of got lost.

Here's a synopsis Aaron, so maybe you can better understand where I was coming from as the school debate got intermingled with the business owner debate a little too much.

The school may very well be within it's right to have expelled the girl. My point is that by expelling her under the same conditions that they admitted her, family interview and all, could create a decent legal position for the family. The circumstances that lead to the public outing of the lesbian parents, and the school's reaction could very well be seen as one of monetary and not religous motive. It's a complicated legal issue to say the least, making the simplistic answers of "they have the right, they are a private business" as flimsy as Michael Moore blathering FICTICOUS PRESIDENT to support his views.

Without more information on the circumstance of the girl's application being approved by the school, and board of trustees, we can't really say. They may have lied to gain entry, etc. If we assume that they stayed true to the applicaton process and were reviewed and accepted as the family unit they are, is it more than fair to say the school is slightly behind the 8-ball had the family decided to pursue a case.

As for the arguements that I brought the US Constitution into, that was moreso in respone of their poor analogy of privately owned businesses that provide services to the public being allowed to violate civil rights laws at will. i.e Microsoft can't ignore quaified women applicants for lesser qualified male candidates etc.


Digi, I certainly wasn't grossly misusing the term "public", but nice try. Did you even follow the links and research the use of the terminology as DEFINED in the US Constitution and it's application in the business arguement as I indicated?

a) Equal access
All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
(b) Establishments affecting interstate commerce or supported in their activities by State action as places of public accommodation; lodgings; facilities principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises; gasoline stations; places of exhibition or entertainment; other covered establishments

(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;
(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;
(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and
(4) any establishment
(A)
(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or
(ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and
(B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.



Also Jayx1, the family isn't trying to "force" lesbianism on Christianity, or the school. They are more than willing to leave to find a community where they are wanted and accepted. The point I was making in terms of the School is that they put themselves in a precarious positon by accepting the girl while she has lesbian parents, then expelling her for the same conditions she was accepted under. No-one is saying for them to accept lesbianism, but the daughter isn't gay (to my knowledge) and isn't advocating her parent's views of christianity/sexuality in school. She is there learning those of the school

As Digi said, perhaps it becomes more contractual at that point,which is fine. The school would have a slightly better position in a civil rights case due to religous freedoms etc perhaps, but in either arena of justice the lawyers for the family could cite the fact that the applicaton was accepted when she had lesbian parents, and deemed contractually sound at the time of entry. It was the fear of losing money in the forms of revenue/tuiton which was the true motive for the terminating of the agreement could be the main point of contention, in which case the school's expulsion would not have to do with their agreed upon policy as much as fear

Last edited by crazedcanuck on Sep-25-2005 at 21:24

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:17  Canada
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Jayx1
Prime Minister of TOTA



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Socialist People's Republic Of Canada

bottom line, private schools have the right to accept and expel whomever they want for whatever reason. The legal challenge is only valid for recovering lost fees and/or compensation for lost time. Thats it.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:25  Canada
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crazedcanuck
Dance 4 Jebus



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Red Deer, AB

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
bottom line, private schools have the right to accept and expel whomever they want for whatever reason. The legal challenge is only valid for recovering lost fees and/or compensation for lost time. Thats it.


Legal expert on US Civil rights law now are you? my point is one may be more likely/unlikely than the other to take place or succeed, but you don't have the answer to that, no-one on this site does.

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:33  Canada
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Jayx1
Prime Minister of TOTA



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Socialist People's Republic Of Canada

im not talking about legality when it comes to rights. there are a lot of laws on the books which contravene our rights and that i dont agree with.

Many people confuse rights with laws which actually scares me and explains why our rights are actually being eroded away by laws.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:37  Canada
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crazedcanuck
Dance 4 Jebus



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Red Deer, AB

AS long as the school is abiding by Federal/State/County law, they can expell a student.

Private Schools ARE immediately governed by their state laws. They have the RIGHT to behave within those constraints.

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:47  Canada
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Jayx1
Prime Minister of TOTA



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Socialist People's Republic Of Canada

quote:
Originally posted by crazedcanuck
AS long as the school is abiding by Federal/State/County law, they can expell a student.

Private Schools ARE immediately governed by their state laws. They have the RIGHT to behave within those constraints.


you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you you are free to do as we tell you


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by jester
Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Old Post Sep-25-2005 21:51  Canada
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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > Christian School Expels Daughter of Lesbians
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