quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Ban tall ppl as well!

At 5'8", I'm with you on that one. Either that or just cut their legs down. Damn tall people.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Well, the one example that was given was of a philosopher. These are hardly sought after commodity. In Denmark the jobless rate is extremely high for all kinds of humanists - I suspect the same is true of France. In Denmark there are companies which forbid their employees wearing head-scarfs. Most of them because they fear customers would stay away. While I don't agree with such policies, I do think that private companies should be allowed to hire people from whatever criteria they like - after all the owners are the ones taking the financial risk, and should therefore be allowed to reduce that in whatever way they believe is best.

But don't you think that a tad bit discriminatory though?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

^^^^^ Of course, but it's a private company, and they should be allowed to conduct business in whatever way they see fit, as long as it does not prevent others from doing the same/individuals from living their life as they want.
If I got down on the street and started handing money out to everyone I saw, except those wearing polo-shirts, I would be discriminating as well, but as it's my money I should be allowed to.

Lopitrance: Your entire argument is confusing immigrants with muslims. It's quite possible for a muslim to have been born and bred in France. Furthermore, your subargument, about the intolerance shown by more vocal muslims/ruling muslims towards people of other/no faiths, is a red herring. Just because someone else acts in a despicable manner that doesn't mean that you are justified in stooping to their level.

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Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^^^ Of course, but it's a private company, and they should be allowed to conduct business in whatever way they see fit, as long as it does not prevent others from doing the same/individuals from living their life as they want. If I got down on the street and started handing money out to everyone I saw, except those wearing polo-shirts, I would be discriminating as well, but as it's my money I should be allowed to.

I strongly disagree with your assessement. Personally I think a head scarf ban constitutes as illegal discriminatory behaviour. If your company is allowed to coduct business as they see fit (and involves a ban on headscarves) how does that not clonflict with your precondition of allowing individuals to live their lives as they see fit? True you are allowed to donate to any cause you deem worthy, but the principle behind the anti-discriminatory laws is that you avoid all invalid comparitives such as race.

___________________
Retro ...

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Originally posted by occrider I strongly disagree with your assessement. Personally I think a head scarf ban constitutes as illegal discriminatory behaviour.

Well, in Denmark it has been decided that it is legal for companies to discriminate in this manner when they employ people, so the legality is not really an issue here.

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Originally posted by occrider If your company is allowed to coduct business as they see fit (and involves a ban on headscarves) how does that not clonflict with your precondition of allowing individuals to live their lives as they see fit?

I don't consider a right to get a job as X at Y part of the individuals freedom to live his life as he sees fit, anymore than the individual can claim someone as his/her wife/slave/employee without their consent. It takes two to agree on starting a relationship - but only one to prevent it from being realized.

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Originally posted by occrider True you are allowed to donate to any cause you deem worthy, but the principle behind the anti-discriminatory laws is that you avoid all invalid comparitives such as race.

My stance is that prevention of invalid comparitives should not be enforced by government, but (preferably) decency in the individuals, or failing that, by the market forces. E.g. if company A refuses to hire people wearing religious symbols openly, then those who disagree with this policy can take their business elsewhere. Same goes for companies refusing to hire homosexuals, nazis, secularists, pierced people, nerds and what have we. As an example, I loathe MicroSoft and its business practices. However, I do not support the anti-trust measures against it, or think that the government should fine it, but simply don't buy or use its products, and tell others about benefits of using alternatives to MS products.

How do you, as a liberal, defend the stance that the individual wanting a job should be able to enforce the possible burden of his being there on a company run by a supposedly free individual?

i don't think this law is untolerant ...i totally agree with this law...school is a public place and we don't have to show our religions as previously said religion is private ....not only the veil but big crosses are also banned so it apply to christian and also muslim.....i don't think it's discriminatory u have to understand that here france is a secular country which means religion and state are separated....so no we can't accept to have religions signs in school and public places but yeah in law school we got these 2 girls wearing a veil but it's an university so it's different but this law had just been made to keep our tradition of secularism and i think it was necessary....

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd You can practice your religion all you want, but not in public government-related institutions such as schools. There is a strict line that must be observed. In an institution like that, if you religious symbols can't be seen by anybody (such as a necklace with a cross hidden inside a shirt), that's OK, but if they can, that's a problem.

First of all, this is not a case about "religious symbolism," it's about being allowed to practice your religion and not having secularim imposed on you.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd These visible symbols create a potential for conflicts and a multitude of disturbances that may interfere with teaching (in schools) and the functioning of any other government institutions.

Wow, schools in America can't opperate and there is constant conflict and anarchy because of Muslim women wearing their hijabs.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd The government and all its institutions are, and must be, strictly secular, as they are in France. This is something Americans don't get, because the line between church and state in the US is long gone (and was tenuous at best when it existed, because most people are religious, unlike Europeans).

No one is asking for laws or regulations to be made/enforced based on religion. Gee, I'm a stupid American because I believe I should be allowed to practice my religion, without restrictions on where I can and can't. And by doing so, I'm somehow imposing it on others.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l school is a public place and we don't have to show our religions as previously said religion is private ....

Well, many Muslims women believe they HAVE to wear a hijab, so it not an ornament for display or even a "religious symbol," it's part of their belief system and identity.

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Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l not only the veil but big crosses are also banned so it apply to christian and also muslim.....i don't think it's discriminatory

Right, so it's not only discriminitary against Muslim women, but all non-secular/religious people.

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Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l u have to understand that here france is a secular country which means religion and state are separated.... but this law had just been made to keep our tradition of secularism and i think it was necessary....

You do understand what seperation of Church and State means right? It's the seperation of the legislative process from religion. Law's are not based on religion etc. Well, I'm sorry, but wearing a hijab has absolutely nothing to do with seperation of Church and State. The only thing the ban reinforces is religious intolerace. The state has no fucking right to tell me or anyone else how to practice my religion and when not to.

EDIT: America is a secular coutry too but we don't have laws which are religously intolerant/reinforce religious intolerance.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Nov-03-2005 at 15:24

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well, many Muslims women believe they HAVE to wear a hijab, so it not an ornament for display or even a "religious symbol," it's part of their belief system and identity.

What if my religion says that I have to walk naked? Believe it or not, there are certain religions like that in the world. Imagine if this would ever fly in the "free" United States.

When you live in a certain country, you have to be acquainted with and respect the local culture. If you or your ancestors are not from this country, and your culture differs from theirs, you can keep your culture but without offending the local populace, who lets you live with them.

The local culture in France is one of strict secularity, which I agree with completely. Just like people in the US would become very upset if they saw even a glimpse of a naked body (think about what happened during the Superbowl), people in France become very upset when they see overt religious symbols.

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You do understand what seperation of Church and State means right? It's the seperation of the legislative process from religion.

It's the separation of Government from religion. Schools are government institutions. The government funds, controls, and oversees them. What don't you understand about this statement?

Besides, schoolchildren are at a very vulnerable age where potential for conflicts is great. Most French people do not believe in God and are not religious, so for French kids to suddenly witness religiosity is a wild and unusual spectacle that may cause the less tactful of them to start teasing and bullying Muslim students. Meanwhile, the schools must maintain order.

Why do you think schoolchildren in Britain and many other countries must all wear special uniforms? So that the schools can minimize any bullying or other disturbances related to the differences between students, and concentrate on normal instruction.

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Nov-03-2005 at 15:31

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd What if my religion says that I have to walk naked? Believe it or not, there are certain religions like that in the world. Imagine if this would ever fly in the "free" United States. When you live in a certain country, you have to be acquainted with and respect the local culture. If you or your ancestors are not from this country, and your culture differs from theirs, you can keep your culture but without offending the local populace, who lets you live with them. The local culture in France is one of strict secularity, which I agree with completely. Just like people in the US would become very upset if they saw even a glimpse of a naked body (think about what happened during the Superbowl), people in France become very upset when they see overt religious symbols.

I agree with the double morals here, but personally I don't see anything wrong with someone walking around naked. It's their fucking problem, as well as having a hijab is their fucking problem. Whoever gets offended by a hijab can really just fuck off, so nothing to protect here imo.

And oh, I make no difference if it's religion or not. I think religious freedoms are kind of stupid, BUT freedom of expression is very important, and having a hijab is part of that, as well as being allowed to dress however you want to for unreligious puposes.

^^ No society in the world will ever give you a 100% "freedom of expression." Stop kidding yourself.

You can express yourself so long as you don't offend others.

It just so happens that Americans aren't offended by public religion, they welcome it. They're much more offended by a nude breast.

Well, the French welcome the nude breast, but they're very offended by public religion.

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Nov-03-2005 at 15:41