quote:

Originally posted by Demoted Actually, one time I had someone ask me "how does this guy make all this music live?" He really thought all the tracks were being constructed sight on scene.

LOL

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in an ideal world the producer should get most of the credit, but in a realistic world, how can anyone but the person who delivers it get any less than 75%. People who communicate the music (in the case of dance this is the DJ) are therefore bound to get the most credit.

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Producers def. should get the most credit, but most of my friends think the DJ's at the clubs are "making" the music right up in the booth (and I ain't talkin' about Ableton).

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I once believed that they in fact made music out of nothing when they djed

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quote:

Originally posted by Demoted So you think it's a 3/4 shot if you were to take someone to an Armin show, or what have you, the person would know the names of the people making the tracks he's spinning instead of the name of Armin?

I think he meant "I think the producer **SHOULD** get 75% and DJ 25% credit." At least thats how I interpreted it.

producer..without the music there would be no DJ. whereas without the DJ there would still be the music.

All music production can be broken down into 3 principle facets:

The Songwriter.
The Producer.
The Performer.

Up until the 60s, very rarely was one person all three. In classical parlance, the Songwriter was the composer, putting annotated music on paper, the Producer was the Conductor, completing the Songwriter's vision through symphony, and the performer was the orchestra, playing the actual music live.

It wasn't until the rush of self-contained "bands" in the 60s who wrote, produced and performed all their own music (bands had existed long before this, but the Beatles were the first ones who really brought the idea to the forefront) that people began to think of them as one and the same, but in most pop music, those distinctions still exist. Consider, for instance, the hit pop song "Hit Me Baby One More Time". This would be categorized as:

Songwriter(s) == Jörgen Elofsson, David Krueger, Per Magnusson and Max Martin
Producer == Max Martin
Performer == Britney Spears

Max Martin is the brainchild behind other acts as well, including Backstreet Boys, Nsync and much of Christina Aguilera's early output, which is why their music sounds so similar. Say what you want about the music, you can't ignore his knack for a good pop hook since he seems to do it so effortlessly. Now, Britney may be the most famous member of this partnership, but only because she is the faceplate, the image to sell the music to the public. She isn't the marketer, per se; she is the product itself. But she in no way makes the most money out of all of them. Martin's been in the industry for 20 years, and long after she's become a joke of a VH1 special, he'll have moved on to create the next pop sensation. So he doesn't care that he doesn't have millions of adorating fans. In fact, he likes it that way. Puppetmasters don't want fame and attention. They just want money and power. And he has tons of it.

Sometimes the songwriter is also the performer, but need help from a producer to make their songs professional. Such was the pact between Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones to create the biggest selling album of all time: Thriller.

Now, in electronic music's case, typically the Producer and Songwriter are one and the same, since music production these days has literally fused with music creation (in the old days, you wrote the song first, then you recorded it. Today, most producers aren't musically educated enough to write music or even conceptualize complete songs in their head, and thus quite often write the songs as they record them, making it up as they go and do whatever sounds right to them). Who is the performer? ...why, the DJ of course. So thus, you have, for example, this dichotomy:

Songwriter: Matt Darey, Red Jerry
Producer: Lost Tribe/Westbam
Performer: Paul Oakenfold

Obviously the weird system of electronic music production management and promotion is completely at odds with the ordinary world of album-oriented marketing, but the people making the jump from the pop world to the EDM one don't know that. Thus, they really do see Oakenfold as a Britney Spears. And thus, they really do see Wizards of the Sonic or Gamemaster as Oakenfold tracks...not that he made them, but that he owns them. That they are his signature, his calling card, and that only he can play them and no other DJ can, because they're HIS tracks. HIS records that he always plays at his "shows". For any other DJ to play these records would be seen as almost blasphemous, on par with Nsync singing a Backstreet Boys song (although, sure, bands play cover tunes all the time, but not generally their direct competition).

And like Britney, the DJ gets all the fame. But unlike the pop system, again the EDM scene shows its bizzaro world behavior in nullifying the success the Producer deserves. The DJ gets the fame AND the money. It has, in recent, years, forced producers to come out of the woodwork to start DJing more since that is where the money is. They make even more money when they come out and spin just their own productions, becoming 1.5 hour commercials for their own music, like mobile sales teams (Gabriel & Dresden and Above & Beyond are the biggest culprits of this).

So what must be done with this? .....simple: We must educate all the newbs. You can start by getting this Tshirt:

quote:

Originally posted by Demoted yep, that's the situation I'm referring to. Along with the fact that newbs at a club think that the dj is the one who made all the music being played. Actually, one time I had someone ask me "how does this guy make all this music live?" He really thought all the tracks were being constructed sight on scene. I may be wandering a little further into pure igonorance though. It's undeniable in any case that producers go relatively unnoticed while many djs live the high-life off other's creative works. As insensitive as that sounds.

LOL, i think in general he's just new to life

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As a person who listens to a generally lesser amount of mixes/sets than others i can definatly say producers. I've never really listened to a set live or at home or a mix and said wow what great mixing over saying "Wow, what a killer track" first.

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quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur All music production can be broken down into 3 principle facets: The Songwriter. The Producer. The Performer. Up until the 60s, very rarely was one person all three. In classical parlance, the Songwriter was the composer, putting annotated music on paper, the Producer was the Conductor, completing the Songwriter's vision through symphony, and the performer was the orchestra, playing the actual music live. It wasn't until the rush of self-contained "bands" in the 60s who wrote, produced and performed all their own music (bands had existed long before this, but the Beatles were the first ones who really brought the idea to the forefront) that people began to think of them as one and the same, but in most pop music, those distinctions still exist. Consider, for instance, the hit pop song "Hit Me Baby One More Time". This would be categorized as: Songwriter(s) == Jörgen Elofsson, David Krueger, Per Magnusson and Max Martin Producer == Max Martin Performer == Britney Spears Max Martin is the brainchild behind other acts as well, including Backstreet Boys, Nsync and much of Christina Aguilera's early output, which is why their music sounds so similar. Say what you want about the music, you can't ignore his knack for a good pop hook since he seems to do it so effortlessly. Now, Britney may be the most famous member of this partnership, but only because she is the faceplate, the image to sell the music to the public. She isn't the marketer, per se; she is the product itself. But she in no way makes the most money out of all of them. Martin's been in the industry for 20 years, and long after she's become a joke of a VH1 special, he'll have moved on to create the next pop sensation. So he doesn't care that he doesn't have millions of adorating fans. In fact, he likes it that way. Puppetmasters don't want fame and attention. They just want money and power. And he has tons of it. Sometimes the songwriter is also the performer, but need help from a producer to make their songs professional. Such was the pact between Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones to create the biggest selling album of all time: Thriller. Now, in electronic music's case, typically the Producer and Songwriter are one and the same, since music production these days has literally fused with music creation (in the old days, you wrote the song first, then you recorded it. Today, most producers aren't musically educated enough to write music or even conceptualize complete songs in their head, and thus quite often write the songs as they record them, making it up as they go and do whatever sounds right to them). Who is the performer? ...why, the DJ of course. So thus, you have, for example, this dichotomy: Songwriter: Matt Darey, Red Jerry Producer: Lost Tribe/Westbam Performer: Paul Oakenfold Obviously the weird system of electronic music production management and promotion is completely at odds with the ordinary world of album-oriented marketing, but the people making the jump from the pop world to the EDM one don't know that. Thus, they really do see Oakenfold as a Britney Spears. And thus, they really do see Wizards of the Sonic or Gamemaster as Oakenfold tracks...not that he made them, but that he owns them. That they are his signature, his calling card, and that only he can play them and no other DJ can, because they're HIS tracks. HIS records that he always plays at his "shows". For any other DJ to play these records would be seen as almost blasphemous, on par with Nsync singing a Backstreet Boys song (although, sure, bands play cover tunes all the time, but not generally their direct competition). And like Britney, the DJ gets all the fame. But unlike the pop system, again the EDM scene shows its bizzaro world behavior in nullifying the success the Producer deserves. The DJ gets the fame AND the money. It has, in recent, years, forced producers to come out of the woodwork to start DJing more since that is where the money is. They make even more money when they come out and spin just their own productions, becoming 1.5 hour commercials for their own music, like mobile sales teams (Gabriel & Dresden and Above & Beyond are the biggest culprits of this).

Verrrry good post here. Though I really don't see the problem with djs whoring their own productions in their own sets as you pointed out Above & Beyond and Gabriel & Dresden doing. I know there was a thread made yesterday concerning this. I think it's perfectly fine to play your own tracks in your own sets rather than everyone else's. As long as you come up with a variety of tracks over the years and don't continue to hammer the same tracks over and over and over ad infinitum.

both!

like sumone here just said, they cant live without each other.