quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Don't build your entire web site in Flash. Have an intro (with a "skip" button), a banner, even parts of your navigational interface in Flash if you really think that's necessary - but not the whole site. I don't want to get into the whole argument again, but here are a few quick reasons why you should never do this: 1. Bookmarks don't work. 2. Browser navigation doesn't work. 3. Some people don't have Flash and don't want Flash. 4. Some people block Flash because of its use in intrusive ads and popups. Sites made in 100% Flash just irritate viewers. You've been warned. FYI, the only application that can make Flash elements is Macromedia Flash (surprise surprise).

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with much of this post.

Here is the real story.

If you want to build a site and have never used flash before... go with html or php or whatever, if you know it. The newest releases of flash do a great job of making it more accessable to new users... but do you really want to spend 800 bucks on software you can't even take 5% advantage of? Of course not. If you don't know actionscript (Flash's internal scripting language) stick with something else.

Unless you are extremely good at Flash animation DO NOT ATTEMPT to make a Flash intro to your site. Ammature flash intros look rediculous. If you are an artist and can use Photoshop, go with a splash screen.

Flash menus add tonnes of functionality to your navigation system. If your site is complicated enough to need submenus use Flash; it is the best option, provided you do it properly. I could help you with that if you needed it, but I have yet to see an artist's site that needed submenus. That is mostly left to large companies and sites with tonnes of content and elaborate substructure.

And I really want to address these... like DigiNut I don't want to get into a Flash argument, but I feel the thread needs an answer to this preposterous challenge.

Challenge 1. Bookmarks don't work.
Answer 1. Um... yes they do. I know you meant that you cannot bookmark a specific state of the Flash movie, but if the designer so wished, you would be able to.

Challenge 2. Browser navigation doesn't work.
Answer 2. Again, it is possible. But this is an artist's site. If you really needed to be able to bookmark a specific part of the site or navigate between "Home" and "Songs" with the back and foreward buttons... you would be a moron.

Challenge 3. Some people don't have Flash and don't want Flash.
Answer 3. True, but if you wish to cater to 2.7% (http://www.macromedia.com/software/...us/flashplayer/)of the population... be my guest.

Challenge 4. Some people block Flash because of its use in intrusive ads and popups.
Answer 4. So these people who downloaded the Flash player, only to block the content... do they have names or should I just toilet paper the houses on Stupid Friggin Idiot Street.


And Flash MX is not the only Flash authoring tool. That has been said before... but seriously, anyone with access to google could find that out in less than 5 seconds.


All in all, if you know alot about Flash and actionScript, go for it. If not, but still wish to make elements of your site Flash, Swish is a great alternative, as Artisan said.

It takes me and most people about .5 seconds to figure out if a site is Flash based or not, and how to navigate it. If you are making your site for fat old men who hardly ever use the internet but may want to look up your record sales compared to, say, Mauro Piccotto, go ahead and make everything in html so their tired old brains can work around it. Otherwise, do whatever you want, the Sony Records execs don't give two bits.

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quote:

Originally posted by djglacial It takes me and most people about .5 seconds to figure out if a site is Flash based or not, and how to navigate it. If you are making your site for fat old men who hardly ever use the internet but may want to look up your record sales compared to, say, Mauro Piccotto, go ahead and make everything in html so their tired old brains can work around it. Otherwise, do whatever you want, the Sony Records execs don't give two bits.

Then again, usability and content over flash any day.

I guess I'm just a fat old man who hardly ever uses the internet.












Oh wait...

___________________
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To be honest, I don't know anything about Flash. But I'd like to. It's not just for a web site but just to have another creative tool to express myself. I've seen some neat flash movies. Sometimes I feel the urge to create visuals to go with my music. I think it would be fun and worth learning. I have a friend who designs sites. She has Flash so I'll have her show me around the program and I'll do some studying up on the actionscript.

Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Then again, usability and content over flash any day. I guess I'm just a fat old man who hardly ever uses the internet. Oh wait...

"Usability and content over flash..."?

That's like saying "visibility over pencil drawing" or "function over medium."

How about "function over form?"

Or better yet "do what you have to do so it looks good and operates."


All I'm saying is, if you can pull it off, do it. The best looking sites in the world are Flash, bar none. Looks just aren't everything. Still, give me a non Flash site that beats www.2advanced.com in looks combined with function, and you win the title "King of the Internet", which is currently held in tie by DigiNut and Pam Anderson.

___________________

Help create the ultimate music tutorial source.

djglacial.com

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Then again, usability and content over flash any day.

Exactly.

It's got nothing to do with page loading, page size, or any of that other shit - it's got everything to do with usability.

The fact that dj assclown on here is calling everybody idiots who disagrees with him exemplifies my point. These people don't care how usable their site is - to them, anybody who has a problem with it is a moron.

That's not a good way to go about designing web pages. You're marketing yourself. You don't want to be marketing yourself as an elitist snob. You're in the business (or the hobby) of creating art for other people's enjoyment; if your site is gewgaw, people will assume the same about your music.

I myself use a plugin for Firefox called Flashblock that thousands of other Firefox users use. It replaces every Flash movie with a "click here to view" button, and most of us use it specifically for avoiding intrusive/malicious Flash scripts as well as those generally annoying pages that clutter up everything with Flash. I have it installed, but only load it on demand, and if I see an entire site with no content other than a flash movie, then guess what - I'm going somewhere else.

Flash sites are a cancer on the web, right up there with popups, blinking text and right-click blocking. I'm not suggesting it's never appropriate to use it, but it is probably one of the most often misused and downright abused technologies of the web that I have seen to date. People use the web to find information - they don't care about your artistic skills unless you are specifically in that business (and music production isn't related closely enough to justify that assertion).

If the reasons I posted above were not enough, consider a few more of them:
- Flash sites aren't indexable by search engines; say goodbye to a Google rank.
- Flash sites can't easily be linked to by other web pages
- Font resizing doesn't work on Flash sites
- Flash sites are often not printable (and hard to make printable)
- Updating a Flash site is far more labour-intensive than updating a regular site (unless you are an expert and can create good dynamic content within Flash)
- Flash doesn't work with accessability tools (screen readers, etc.)

Understand that on the web, users have customized their browser the way they want it and do not want YOU, the designer, messing with THEIR UI. Learn to accept the fact that on the web, you do not own the end user's interface! Flash has become a way for people to refuse to accept this and try to force their users to see content the way THEY would like it to be seen, instead of the way the USERS want to search for it.

This is exactly what you'll hear from almost every web design professional.

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Exactly. Understand that on the web, users have customized their browser the way they want it and do not want YOU, the designer, messing with THEIR UI. Learn to accept the fact that on the web, you do not own the end user's interface! Flash has become a way for people to refuse to accept this and try to force their users to see content the way THEY would like it to be seen, instead of the way the USERS want to search for it. This is exactly what you'll hear from almost every web design professional.

How would I be messing with their UI? If they don't like it, they can just close it. If I design a web site, of course I want others to view it the way I intended it... You seem to hate flash alot. Damn, it's not Satan.

I really enjoy flash-enhanced web sites.

Anyway, I'm outta here. This thread is done.

Last edited by 4am on Jan-16-2006 at 04:56

big lol again @ digi.. dude,,, why not go back i dos?.. that way our 3+ ghz processors cant work faster like they were ment to...


ive seen what ppl can do with flash... its worth every not working bookmark and every flashmovie.. (well... sometimes)

I don't see why you cant bookmark.. I have a bunch of flash only pages bookmarked.. Just bookmark the .swf

Remember Macromedia Flash is more animation based than website creation based.. It's going to take you a week or two just to start getting anywhere with the program.

Although I haven't used the program for 4-5 years at least. No doubt it's changed alot.

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Last edited by mysticalninja on Jan-16-2006 at 13:06

html/xhml sites have limits, flash sites don't

You can make a flash site as if it was a html site, while the loading size is like ten times less. Html is ancient, Flash is the future. However I agree some Flash sites suck in navigation, loading times etc etc, but that's not the fault of the program, it's the fault of the designer.

end of story

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Then again, usability and content over flash any day.

+mfing 1

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Exactly. People use the web to find information - they don't care about your artistic skills unless you are specifically in that business (and music production isn't related closely enough to justify that assertion).

I agree with that to a point. I am a graphic designer, and I finance almost all of my music with graphic design. There is a simple truism about web design:


You can have the best content in the world, but a flashy website sells better than a plain site with plenty of great text.


I have made sites with minimalist designs and great content, and I have made sites that resemble Depthcore.com desktop backgrounds. Guess which paid more? Websites are advertisements, and advertisements are (technically) art. You're trying to catch the eyes of customers. So, regardless of your field of expertise, a professional website WILL enhance your image.

Flash sucks most of the time, but a slick-looking HTML site is simply good advertising.

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One always has to remember these days where the garbage pail is, because it's so easy to make sounds, and to put sounds together into something that appears to be music, but it's just as hard as it always was to make good music.
- Robert Moog