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TranceAddict Forums > Main Forums > Music Discussion > So what are some "GOOD" cheese you like? or songs that
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RapidFire
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: toronto

Tiesto & Bt - Love Comes Again
Ian Van Dhal - Castles In The Sky (Instrumental)


cheese is good in small doses.

Old Post Feb-26-2006 03:45  Serbia
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kramer333
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Frederiksberg, Denmark

Good Cheese?????

Old Post Feb-26-2006 03:56  Denmark
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swanson
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2005
Location: ON,Canada

i'd say ian van dahl - try, dee dee - forever, groove coverage - moonlight shadow , sonic fire - like one... once in a while it doesn't hurt to listen to this kind of stuff.

Old Post Feb-26-2006 04:14  Canada
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Ishkur
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC

quote:
Originally posted by sikrav
i dont think anyone has actually clearly defined cheese??!!


I have. I'll cutnpaste it here:

Cheese has nothing to do with popularity or accessibility, unlike pop music. Pop music and cheese music are not synonymous. Some pop music is cheese, lots of cheese music is pop, but they are not the same. So get that out of your head to start. Cheese != pop.

Now, cheese is defined as music that is fake, canned, and forced. It is trying to be something it's not. It is pretending it is deep and sophisticated, emotional stuff, but in truth it is shallow trite, just going through the motions, playing out the same simple, tired cliches. In short, cheese music is poseur music. It lies to you. It tries to appeal to your emotions, tug your heartstrings, and get you to feel a certain way toward it. But you feel nothing at all. Why?

Because your intelligence is being insulted. You hate being deceived. You hate being controlled and manipulated. You hate being compartmentalized into a little emotional sponge for this cheese music to fill you with tired formulas. It sounds way too affected to have any meaningful impact on you. Or anyone, for that matter. It is trying to hard. It is fake and transparent, to the point of being offensively lame.

Now, because of that....cheese is going to be interpreted differently by people. Some will think DJ Sammy is genius, forward-thinking stuff. I personally see just about 95% of all epic/vocal/anthem/dutch trance made after 1998 to be unlistenable, cheesy shite. Someone new to trance is going to think the exact opposite.

But! It is not entirely subjective. There is a STANDARDIZED, common denominator that eventually evolves with regard to what cheesy music is. A universal opinion towards cheese tends to come about through healthy and extended exposure to a certain form of music, that is the same among almost everyong.

to wit: The longer people are exposed to certain styles of music, the closer together their interpretations of its cheesy epithets get. In other words, never ask a newb what is cheese. They don't have the wealth of experience to identify it yet, so every newb will identify it differently, which is where the confusion lies. Everything just sounds so novel to them, they like almost everything. They haven't developed a discriminating eye for what is good or bad or cheesy music yet. But after a few years, people's tastes tend to align, and the common identification of cheese, pop, and downright awful music becomes readily apparent.

Old Post Feb-26-2006 04:22  Canada
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kramer333
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Frederiksberg, Denmark

quote:
Originally posted by sikrav
i dont think anyone has actually clearly defined cheese??!!


I, personally would define, a big part of the Italo-dance scene, as Cheese!

Old Post Feb-26-2006 04:53  Denmark
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Cosmic
4-8-15-16-23-42



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: home

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
I have. I'll cutnpaste it here:

cut


Mostly I agree, but you say that when you 'develop' your music taste, you tend to hate cheese more. Ive been listening to trance from 1999, and actually I always liked some cheese. Not too much (much cheese is indeed not worth listening..), but there are some better cheese tunes...out there.
For listening once in a while, I don't think Im cheating with my intelligence. It just depends on my mood!


___________________
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Old Post Feb-26-2006 10:04  Netherlands
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Cloud
housy



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: GRTA , Ioannina

Vengaboys - Kiss (airscape remix)
proper chiz


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Old Post Feb-26-2006 10:33  Greece
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Now, cheese is defined as music that is fake, canned, and forced. It is trying to be something it's not. It is pretending it is deep and sophisticated, emotional stuff, but in truth it is shallow trite, just going through the motions, playing out the same simple, tired cliches. In short, cheese music is poseur music. It lies to you. It tries to appeal to your emotions, tug your heartstrings, and get you to feel a certain way toward it. But you feel nothing at all. Why?


That's a crock of absolute shit, to be honest.

Cheesy music is simply corny: for whatever reason, it is music you are unable to take seriously. It might be because it's taking itself too seriously, or it might simply be because it has pitched-up chipmunk vocals. Cheese can be outstandingly innovative, incredibly high quality or simply stupid bollocks. Anyone who tries to define cheesey beyond that simply doesn't know the meaning of the word. You can have a cheesy smile, a cheesy advert... anything can be cheesy. It's simply something that cannot be taken as serious or straight-faced, whether or not it is aiming for that impression.

The Prodigy's "Out of Space" is probably the best cheesy dance track there is. It's 14 years old and still played out to fuck. It's a total classic, and loved throughout dance music circles. It's loved throughout any circles. I still hear it being blasted out of trendy clothes shop speakers. However, with its Jamaican vocals, comedy "boing" sounds and a sped up Ultramagnetic MC, it is undeniably cheese. You still dig it's "let's fucking 'ave it" high-energy vibes, but you don't take it seriously.

At the other end of the scale there is Rank 1's "Airwave", such a horrifically overblown piece of schmaltz that only a small child can possibly take it seriously. It goes so far into trying to be serious that it breaks- you stop believing in whatever emotional message it's trying to pipe you.

Somewhere in between, there is the rest of cheese. DJ Alligator Project's Whistle Song is a classic example of bad cheese because it is built entirely out of stupid, immature, daft ingredients. However, the straight-faced lyrics and stern Germanic commands, it contradicts itself. It's also sold to 12 year old kids who go to youth clubs, who take it desperately seriously because they don't know any better.

Contrasting that is 2 Unlimited's "Get Ready For This", a classic example of good cheese. It's got a killer hook and the rhythmic balance is awesome, yet it's clearly poppy euro-trash and doesn't try and hide it. It's all in good fun.

That's the difference between good and bad cheese. Good cheese knows its stupid and is there to unplug your head to. Bad cheese wants to be something else, but its creator is so fucking incompetent that they can't deliver their message.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post Feb-26-2006 13:23  England
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A.J.
Back from the dead



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Sydney

Does anyone else feel like an idiot, following this conversation about the specifics of "Cheese" ?


The fact that the two of you (Ishkur and System-J) have clearly-defined definitions of 'cheese', which you have put a reasonable amound of thought into is even more laughable.


Both of you seem to be stating your personal definition as if it is gospel.


What a crock!

Old Post Feb-26-2006 14:08  Australia
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by A.J.
Does anyone else feel like an idiot, following this conversation about the specifics of "Cheese" ?


The fact that the two of you (Ishkur and System-J) have clearly-defined definitions of 'cheese', which you have put a reasonable amound of thought into is even more laughable.


Both of you seem to be stating your personal definition as if it is gospel.


What a crock!


So fucking sue me for discussing shit on a forum.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post Feb-26-2006 15:54  England
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Ian
Not dead yet.



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: UK

quote:
Originally posted by A.J.
Does anyone else feel like an idiot, following this conversation about the specifics of "Cheese" ?


Cheese is a fermented milk product made from the curds produced when milk is coagulated. Usually it is made from cow's milk but there are many varieties made from sheep's milk and goat's milk. Cheese can also be made from the milk of various other animals. Real mozzarella, for example, is made from buffaloes' milk
.
The Legend
Most cheese authorities and historians consider that cheese was first made in the Middle East. The earliest type was a form of sour milk which came into being when it was discovered that domesticated animals could be milked. A legendary story has it that cheese was 'discovered' by an unknown Arab nomad. He is said to have filled a saddlebag with milk to sustain him on a journey across the desert by horse. After several hours riding he stopped to quench his thirst, only to find that the milk had separated into a pale watery liquid and solid white lumps. Because the saddlebag, which was made from the stomach of a young animal, contained a coagulating enzyme known as rennin, the milk had been effectively separated into curds and whey by the combination of the rennin, the hot sun and the galloping motions of the horse.
The History
In reality, it isn't known when cheesemaking was first discovered, but it is an ancient art. The first cheeses were not cheeses as they are now known, but curds and whey. Curds and whey result when milk is coagulated. The curd is solid and the whey is liquid. Curds and whey remained a common food (this is what Little Miss Muffet ate) until about 50 years ago. It is still eaten in some areas of the U.S. and in some third world countries.
.
Egyptian hieroglyphics depict workmen making cheese. In ancient times, the whey was consumed immediately and the curd was salted and/or dried to preserve it. The Roman Legion was instrumental in spreading the art of cheesemaking throughout Europe and England. During the Middle Ages, the art of cheesemaking was improved greatly in the monasteries and feudal estates of Europe. The monks became great innovators of cheese and it is to them we owe many of the classic varieties of cheese marketed today. During the Renaissance period cheese suffered a drop in popularity, being considered unhealthy, but it regained favor by the nineteenth century, the period that saw the start of the move from farm to factory production.
.
Basic Principles
The basic principle involved in making all natural cheese is to coagulate or curdle the milk so that it forms into curds and whey. As anyone knows who has left milk un-refrigerated for a period, milk will curdle quite naturally. The milk sours and forms into an acid curd.
.
Today's methods help the curdling process by the addition of a starter (a bacterial culture which produces lactic acid) and rennet the coagulating enzyme which speeds the separation of liquids (whey) and solids (curds). There are two basic categories of starter cultures. Mesophilic starter cultures have microbes that can not survive at high temperatures and thrive at room temperatures. Examples of cheeses made with these bacteria are Cheddar and Gouda. Thermophilic starter cultures are heat-loving bacteria. They are used when the curd is cooked to as high as 132oF. Examples of cheeses made from these bacteria are Swiss and Italian cheeses.
.
The least sophisticated cheeses are the fresh, unripened varieties typified by Cottage Cheese. These are made by warming the milk and letting it stand, treating it with a lactic starter to help the acid development and then cutting and draining the whey from the cheese. The cheese can then be salted and eaten fresh. This is the simplest, most basic form of cheese.
.
Acidfication
Generally, cheesemaking starts with acidification. This is the lowering of the pH (increasing acid content) of the milk, making it more acidic. Classically, this process is performed by bacteria. Bacteria feed on the lactose in milk and produce lactic acid as a waste product. With time, increasing amounts of lactic acid lower the pH of the milk. Acid is essential to the production of good cheese. However, if there is too much acid in the milk the cheese will be crumbly. If not enough acid is present the curd will be pasty.
.
Rennet
After acidification, coagulation begins. Coagulation is converting milk into curds and whey. As the pH of the milk changes, the structural nature of the casein proteins changes, leading to curd formation. Essentially, the casein proteins in the milk form a curd that entraps fat and water. Although acid alone is capable of causing coagulation, the most common method is enzyme coagulation. The physical properties of enzyme-coagulated milk are better than that coagulated purely with acid. Curds produced by enzyme coagulation achieve a lower moisture content without excessive hardening.
.
Enzymes used to coagulate milk come from a number of sources: animals, plants, and fungi. The traditional source of enzyme is rennet. Rennet is a preparation made from the lining of the fourth stomach of calves. The most important enzyme in rennet is chymosin. Today, most chymosin is a recombinant product made possible by genetic engineering. Until 1990, the only source of rennin was calves. Around 1990, scientists created a system to make chymosin that doesn't require calves. Using genetic engineering, the gene for chymosin was cut from a calf cell and inserted into the genomes of bacteria and yeast. The microbes make an exact copy of the calf chymosin. Microbes replicate and grow rapidly, and can be grown continuously. Thus, the supply of rennet is assured. Approximately 70% of the cheese made in the U.S. is coagulated using chymosin. The chymosin made by the yeast cells is the same as that made by the calf cells.
.
Cutting and Pressing the Curd
After the coagulation sets the curd, the curd is cut. This step is usually accompanied with heating the curd. Cutting the curd allows whey to escape, while heating increases the rate at which the curd contracts and squeezes out the whey. The purpose of this stage of the process is to make a hard curd. The term hard curd is relative; the cheese at this stage is still quite pliable. The main difference between a soft curd and a hard curd is the amount of water remaining in the curd. Hard curds have very little water left in them.
..
Once the curds have sufficiently hardened, salting and shaping begins. In this part of the process, salt is added to the cheese. Salt is added for flavor and to inhibit the growth of undesirable microbes. Large curds are formed as smaller curds are pressed together. This will often involve the use of a cheese press.
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Ripening
The shaped cheese is allowed to ripen or age for various periods of time. During this time, bacteria continue to grow in the cheese and change its chemical composition, resulting in flavor and texture changes in the cheese. The type of bacteria active at this stage in the cheesemaking process and the length of time the cheese is aged determine the type and quality of cheese being made.
.
Sometimes an additional microbe is added to a cheese. Blue veined cheeses are inoculated with a Penicillium spore which creates their aroma, flavor and bluish or greenish veining. Such cheeses are internally moulded and ripen from the inside out. On the other hand, cheeses such as Camembert and Brie have their surfaces treated with a different type of Penicillium spore which creates a downy white mould (known as a bloomy or flowery rind): this makes them surface ripened cheeses.
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Many surface ripened cheeses have their surfaces smeared with a bacterial broth. With others the bacteria is in the atmosphere of the curing chambers. These cheeses are called washed rind varieties as they must be washed regularly during their ripening period (longer than for Camembert or Brie) to prevent their interiors drying out. The washings also help promote an even bacterial growth across the surfaces of the cheeses. As this washing can be done with liquids as diverse as salt water and brandy, it also plays a part in the final flavor of the cheese.
.
Rinds
The rinds of the cheeses are formed during the ripening process, many quite naturally. Some are created artificially. Rinds may be brushed, washed, oiled, treated with a covering of paraffin wax or simply not touched at all. Traditional Cheddars are wrapped around with a cotton bandage. The rind's basic function is to protect the interior of the cheese and allow it to ripen harmoniously. Its presence thus affects the final flavor of the cheese. Salting plays an important role in rind formation. Heavily salted cheeses develop a thick, tough outer rind, typified by the Swiss range of cheeses. Cheddar, another natural rind cheese, is less salted than the Swiss varieties, and consequently has a much thinner rind.
.
I hope this introduction to principles of cheesemaking has been interesting and informative. As you begin to make home made cheese, I would advise to start with the simple quick cheese recipes. Then, move on to the soft cheeses and finally the hard cheeses. You'll find that you learn more about the process every time you try a recipe. Your final cheese is effected by many factors. I would advise using a log book in which you can record such factors as starter type and amount, inoculation time, temperature, etc. Each recipe will have different factors you'll need to look at. The use of a log book will help you reproduce your outstanding cheeses on command, while avoiding the many pitfalls that can ruin your hard work.

Old Post Feb-26-2006 16:08 
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eFeKz
sending out an s.o.s.



Registered: Mar 2005
Location:

anything by Kool de Sac i.e., Let It Go, Drew Todds remix of Ian Van Dahls Will I?

Old Post Feb-26-2006 16:39  United States
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