Pain and suffering is not a God thing, I don't believe. I don't believe God causes this or has any way to do with it. It is based around life, human and animal (and maybe even plant). However, a true benevolent God would not want there to be NO suffering, because with suffering comes virtues. Imagine a world where there would be no suffering, then if there would be no suffering, there would be no need to help others, because everyone would be happy and content. The world is not perfect, and I don't think it was intended to be. Suffering is not a GOOD thing, but it is neccessary for some aspects of survival. I mean animals suffer all the time, not all animals feel compassion for each other, others do. It's the same with humans, some feel compassion for those who are suffering, others are just concerned about themselves, or their own survival, and could care less about what someone else is experiencing. So I would argue that suffering is a part of this planet (and other planets), but I don't think it is tied directly to God. I personally don't believe in God in the traditional sense (I believe in Panentheism (and Monism), a God is within everything (natural), and the Universe (universal life-force), a transcendent reality, a God-reality, but thats a whole nother topic altogether).

all this is bullshit. God created the universe and he could have made it anyway he chose. He could have easily let humans have free will and such without there being pain and suffering...

doesn't seem like a lot of people in here understand how to go about a philosophical discussion. take out your biases and make clear concise statements that progress from one point to another. personal beliefs on religion don't really have any place in a discussion like this because certain assumptions need to be made in order to discuss the subject.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 but thats a whole nother topic altogether).

which hopefully we can get into at some point

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Originally posted by Sunsnail all this is bullshit. God created the universe and he could have made it anyway he chose. He could have easily let humans have free will and such without there being pain and suffering...

can you know happiness without having at some point in your life experienced pain, whether physical, mental or emotional?

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Originally posted by Floorfiller doesn't seem like a lot of people in here understand how to go about a philosophical discussion. take out your biases and make clear concise statements that progress from one point to another. personal beliefs on religion don't really have any place in a discussion like this because certain assumptions need to be made in order to discuss the subject.

very true. if you want to accurately debate about philosophical issues you have to forget what your beliefs might be. you cant simply answer me, well thats what God wants, because if I dont believe in God, that argument wont fly. you'll have to argue a point in a way to show me that what i'm claimging isnt possible by one means or another, is possible. you have to disprove what i say but giving arguments or asking questions, not just blatently stating your beliefs

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Originally posted by Sunsnail all this is bullshit. God created the universe and he could have made it anyway he chose. He could have easily let humans have free will and such without there being pain and suffering...

You don't take a clear position here, what he could have done is not the issue.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You don't take a clear position here, what he could have done is not the issue.

indeed. as much as we all think we can understand one philosophical point or another, if there is a God, he could make us believe and think anything we want. We may not have free-will. For all we know, this free-will isnt free at all but we simply can't comprehend that. My love for my girlfriend may be God pointing and saying "fall in love with her" and thats that. I can think its as real as i want, but outside the realm of human understanding, it may be nothing but predetermined & commanded by God. God can in essence do anything he pleases. the question of can God create a rock so heavy he cant lift it or can god create square circles may give us confidence in our belief that an all-powerful God is impossible, when if God is in fact all powerful, he could in theory make a rock so heavy he couldnt lift or create square circles; we just cant understand it.

Last edited by D-res on Mar-06-2006 at 18:38

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard There is one reason and one reason only that God created humans with free will.... he/she/it wants us to choose to love him/her/it. It is not enough for God that we love God, we must want to love him. Really, this only makes sence because what good is love if one is compelled to love. Due to free will being essential to the very reason we were created any impingment on our free will would result in negating our purpose. Subsequently, while an all knowing and powerful God could interviegn on our behalves and safeguard us from pain and suffering doing so would deny him the reward for which he created us therefore he refrains.

you make a very good point. what about God? Does God have free-will? I've studied this in the past and i have to ask, christion theology says that God is a personal being and they also say all personal beings have free will. Free will is having the choice to decide on two or more options of any situation. The Christian God is a being who is all knowing, so technically he must know what choice he is going to make before he makes that choice, meaning he cant avoid the choices he makes and therefor doesnt have free will. Again by Christian beliefs, God is all powerful, meaning at any time he can change his mind and make a different choice, but again, he would have to have previously known that he was going to make that choice or else He isnt all-knowing. if he did know that choice was going to be made, then he doesnt have free will.

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Originally posted by _Nut_ Where is god. Ive never seen proof of him, nor proof of his existence. Where is your god when people are killed from terrorists, where is your god while homeless people starve to death, where is your god when some of the most kind and compassionate people are striken down from this earth. God is merely an illusion from across time. I have to leave for work else I would further my arugement.

you're going to need to present better points than that if you want to convince someone of your beliefs. like what Moral said above, you can take that to any strong-headed christian and he'll agree that while there is pain and suffering, its necessary for pain and suffering to occur. if you dont know suffering you cant know happiness and if you chose to stay true to your faith through the hardships of life, you'll be welcomed into heaven. if nothing else, faith keeps people hopeful and postitive when they're going through these things. My mom (parental references ftw) said one time when i questioned her faith that if she didnt truly believe in her heart that when she dies she'll be able to see all the people that she's loved and lost over the years, she would have no logical reason to live aside from seeing me grow up and become happy. When there are mass famines and disease spreading throughout 3rd world countries, one of the only things that keeps those people sane is the belief that when they die, God will accept them into heaven and they'll live happily ever after. Religion may be the oppiate of the masses, but its damn effective in cases like this, where you have nothing but your faith to live for.

Theological Assumptions:

god uses divine providence (sovereign guidance and control) to create heaven and earth

god is omniscient (all knowing) and knows all truths and falsehoods past, present and future

god is omnipotent (all powerful) and can do anything logically possible

god is onmibenevolent (perfectly good) and acts for the best possible outcome



The Problem of Evil:

evil exists in the world.

if god is omniscient he would have knowledge of worldy evil

if god is omnibenevolent he would desire to halt / prevent worldy evil

if god is omnipotent he would have the means to halt / prevent worldy evil


therefore god must not be all of these things and possibly none of them





that should get things started...

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Originally posted by Floorfiller if god is omnibenevolent he would desire to halt / prevent worldy evil

Your argument falls down on this point right here. The argument relies on the assumption that the elimination of worldly evil is in our best interest. While one looking at the world from the eyes of a human would likely conclude that God would be looking at existance from the view of an omniscient and omnipotent being, subsequently he would have knowledge that we lack and understanding that we cannot attain. From God's view it may be in our best interest that worldly evil be allowed to exist. You cannot conclude that God cannot be both omniscient and omnibenovolent because he allows evil to exist in the human world because you are not omniscient.... you can not judge god's actions to be right or wrong nor his actions to be correct or incorrect unless you have devine knowledge.

fyi, you're still debating over something with contradictory premises here.

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