quote:

Originally posted by Derivative DOH. I'm in the process of transfering all my stuff to my new rig - a Shuttle SN21G5 which is based on an nforce 4 socket 939 motherboard. And I have a single core Athlon 64 because I cant afford a dual core solution right now... *And* my audio interface is a Delta 1010 PCI.

Check back with us and let us know how it performs.

___________________
soundcloud

Youtube

Just a FYI:
AMD will stop the 939 line (and some others) in about a year.
If you buy a 939 now and decide to upgrade to a better processor
in a couple of years you will also need to upgrade to another mobo.
Might be a wiser decision to look for a newer socket which
won't be discontinued within a year.

- farris

heh I had a sff shuttle specced out on newegg too, luckily I haven't bought anything yet.

As far as I can tell the only pcie sound card out right now is a really expensive MOTU, I read alot about pci-pcie bridge chips which allow pci cards to work in a pcie slot but I have never seen any sort of bridge adaptor available to consumers so there may be a workaround if such a bridge does exist(or if you want to use a mobo without pci slots), but its not on any shops I've seen.

I am really considering this antec nsk2400 case and just getting a microatx sized motherboard instead of going with a shuttle cube, it seems to be cheaper, quiter, and cooler, about the size of an old xbox.

I found a link about this nforce4 issue:
http://www.adkproaudio.com/PCI-E.cfm

It seems the performance loss is insignificant with firewire interfaces, but this pci card issue is still very unclear. This pcie transition really screwed over the computer audio people apparently, pcie audio cards look to be a couple years away and will have a price premium. But maybe those bridge adaptors will be a reality by then which might allow us to buy cheap pci cards.

I was looking at an nforce4 939 with an maudio audiophile 2496 pci card in there, sounds like it might not work, but it sounds like something alot of people are trying, can anyone confirm the problems with nforce4 and pci sound cards?

The next round of MOBOs will have TPM chips in them, which migh cause a completely new set of problems for media creation people, especially the independent ones, when the chip moderated everything your coputer does to make sure everything you are doing is legal, I can imagine manipulating audio would get really hairy because of this chip. It is hypothetical issues, but it is making me consider buying a mobo without a tpm chip before I wont be able to find one, the imacs already have them but they dont seem to be active yet.

I have RMA'ed 2 shuttles in about 3 weeks. Third time lucky I hope. But so far my experience of Shuttle PCs has been pretty bad.

Do not buy an SB86i. Its huge, made of steel (and consequently weighs a tonne). It is based on the BTX form factor and its implementation in this case frankly doesnt work. It uses convection currents inside the case to vent hot air out of the top and back of the unit. It sucks in cool air from the front of the unit.

Reasons why I RMA'ed the SB86i:

1) It cooked my new hard drive. The internal case temp is pretty high and the optical drive is hot. Well the 2 HD chasises are above the power supply and the optical drive. Both are like pan frying your data. The drive still works but it has loads of bad sectors and I had to reformat it. Blah.

2) The thing is noisy as hell. It is marketed as a silent PC and it is close to silent when the smart fan is forced to spin at ultra low speed (800 RPM). However, if you do this, your case and CPU temps will skyrocket.

3) It runs hot as hell. Even when you crank the fan speed up to maximum. It doesnt help that it takes prescot CPUs which run fricking hot anyway.

Overall: Heat + Small Case = Recipe for disaster or short lived components.

------------------------------------

Shuttle SN21G5. All new shuttle PCs have problems. This is a widely acknowledged fact so bear in mind there are still problems with this one as it only came out a few months ago. I do not know if these issues will evr get resolved though.

I liked this unit but had to RMA it for the following reasons:

1) The smart fan was fucked and wouldnt spin up or down. I reset the CMOS, performed a CMOS discharge with and without the battery out. Tried to force the fan speed in the BIOS and by third pary utilities like Speed Fan and XPC Tools. Switching fan sockets yielded no difference indicating that the mainboard had a problem reading temperatures correctly.

Problems with the SN21G5 which are common and are experienced by other SN21 owners:

1) There are two copper coils next to the 939 CPU socket. These coils emit a high pitched electrostatic noise. It comes and goes but it is annoying and I could hear it above the low and medium fan speed settings.

2) The BIOS absolutely does not report case and CPU temperature correctly. Some people over at Sudhian like FighterPilot are campaigning to get this fixed because it should never have made it out of R&D.

Overall: Still runs hotter than an ATX case but way less than the SB86i. Its tiny (about the size of a large toaster or a breadbin) and it weighs very little because its alluminium. However, the alluminium chasis dents and scratches *really* easily.

The electrostatic noise is annoying. It comes and goes but it happens most against a white screen. Scrolling the mouse wheel to page up and down in windows causes it to stop temporariliy as does RAM access or possibly HD access (?). But it can shriek if your PC is idling and you are staring at a blank page.

The BIOS temps need sorting out because they are off the wall. I hope the fan speed issues are isolated and I wont suffer them when I get a replacement. I can live with the other faults.

-----------------------------

This is even assuming I can run FL Studio without stuttering - I never managed to test it out or move all of my stuff over to the new PC before I RMA'ed it. Now I am waiting on a replacement and I dont know if its gonna suck for music production :\ waaaah.

what about the sb36g5? or that same model without the display on the front? Do those shuttles have problems too? Last time I looked at sudhain one of the regulars had that running. There is one biostar and another aopen model that look alright too but I am hesitant to try them because I cant find many reports about them.

Actually nevermind that, the sn36g5 is not an nforce chipset

From all that I have read it appears that these sff cubes arent really as cool and quiet as the hype leads one to beleive. At thi point I just want a machine that works, just give me low sound latency with parts that arent discontinued or crazy expensive and doesnt overheat, and can somehow be adjusted to not be stupidly noisy. The PC parts market is very frustrting these days.

SFF boxes will never be cooler or quieter than full sized ATX cases. This makes perfect sense though - less airflow through the case and less space between heat generating components. In the G5 Chasis you have your graphics card, sound card, on board graphics chip, CPU and memory, all within about 8 cm of each other, and all crammed into a tiny space.

They definitely run cool enough to operate but you will never get the kind of operating temperatures you would using a full sized case.

I will say a few things for the G5 chasis though - its small and light enough to fit in a backpack and if you travel alot, you can bring it on a plane as hand luggage. You can get a much faster G5 system than you can a laptop and at the upper end, you will pay a hell load more for the laptop. Also the G5 is probably the coolest looking PC I have ever seen. The pictures on the net dont do it justice, you have to see it on your desk and the itty bitty amount of space it takes up. It is literally the size of a large toaster. Also they are quiet if you turn the smart fan off and keep it on the lowest fan speed. If you replace the default shuttle fan you can get them even quieter. No full size ATX case ever seemed as quiet as the G5 I had for about 2 days before it broke

The only SSF you should avoid is the SB86i because its a dodgy BTX design and its the biggest, heaviest SFF pc you can get. All the other shuttles with propriety motherboards are fine for heat issues provided the fan works and you installed everything correctly.

As for BIOS problems and general pain in the arse stuff - the general rule of thumb is, *new* shuttle PCs always have problems. Some of the older models like the ST20 and the Zen dont seem to have any problems any more provided you get the right BIOS upgrades. Note this doesnt not mean the latest BIOS upgrades because some of the later BIOSes for the ST20 cause more problems than they fix for some users. Read Sudhian before you buy a Shuttle PC because you will get better help from them than you will from Shuttle, who have notoriously bad tech support.

Once you can get it working though there are alot of Shuttle owners that are happy with their PCs.

The only other ones to consider are the PaQ case which looks terrible but it really is the god damn quiestest SFF PC ever designed. You can mistake it for being off when its actually on. Its bigger than the G5 Shuttle though.

The only other SFF PC worth considering is the Silverstone SG-01. also bigger than the G5 but it has favourable reviews. Its expensive though.

Shuttle still rule the SFF market though, but only because the competition is crap.

The nforce 4 socket 939 issue is bothering me though. I mean what other choice do we have for a current motherboard? especially for an SFF one? If anyone has any ideas please reply.

Sure you can go with a P4 if you dont mind prescott cpus and their insane heat and power consumption. Or you can wait for Conroe but that will cost you a fortune in comparison...

I managed to find this PaQ page people keep mentioning but it shows that the thing is not released yet and doesn't have any pictures, how are you guys managing to obtain these things? There is one soundonsound article and a couple threads, is this why everyone is suddenly mentioning this PaQ stuff? Froogle shows nothing that isnt HP or some other product.

There are the ATI chipsets in some of the shuttles but the ones I found didn't have pci slots, that and people are complaining about a different set of issues with them ... As far as desktops go people seem to be using either VIA or nforce4 in their DAW's these days. I've never had good luck with VIA boards myself so I stay far far away. Brandwise I do asus or msi, abit is ruled out because linux has issues with its proprietary sensors.

The core duos are like 600 bucks, I imagine the core 2 duos will be in the same range so I am sticking with AMD personally, my budget is in the range of 300-400 for a cpu. Things like the 64x2 3800+ or the opty165.

It looks like the silverstone costs more money than the shuttles, I guess one just has to bite the bullet, get a g5, and put up with its quirks until shuttle irons them out, then start all over again when the thing gets old.

quote:

Originally posted by farris Just a FYI: AMD will stop the 939 line (and some others) in about a year. If you buy a 939 now and decide to upgrade to a better processor in a couple of years you will also need to upgrade to another mobo. Might be a wiser decision to look for a newer socket which won't be discontinued within a year. - farris

If that is the case, I think I'll just go with nforce 3 for now. I hate to buy older technology, but hey, at least it works and has none of the audio problems associated with the nforce 4.

___________________
soundcloud

Youtube

If current trends are anything to go by, AMD will stop manufacturing socket 939 mobos and CPUs but they will remain in circulation for a number of years yet, just like socket 754 components, which are still available now.

I still dont think they will totally drop support for it for a long time because there is little to differentiate AM2 from current socket 939 mobos except for DDR2 memory.

I somehow missed the link Zombie0915 posted http://www.adkproaudio.com/PCI-E.cfm

OK, the issue has been basically fixed.

I read something posted on another forum that was interesting. Something about how PCI has never been ideal for audio production, in any chipset. PC motherboards are designed for consumer grade audio, games, MP3's, ect, not audio production with low latency.

___________________
soundcloud

Youtube

I have the nForce3 based Gigabyte K8NS-939(bought it last june so OLD!), with a A64 3000+ ontop. No problem's with it, and has plenty of power.

quote:

Originally posted by zodiac9 OK, the issue has been basically fixed.

Not entirely, still some issues:
read more here

- farris