quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 somehow we're supposed to say "that's rough work you guys did so yeah we can understand why you Marines "snapped".

nope. you don't have to say that. in fact, i read absolutely no empathy in the article at all. she obviously can't lie about what she's seen or what she is setting the stage for as a reporter. (b/c newsflash!! thats what they do!!) as a matter of fact, i just saw her video report on CNN just now where she repeats almost verbatim what she wrote with footage of all the crap she saw.

take away from the article whatever you want. you see latent empathizing? hidden excuses? who is anybody to tell you what to think really happens over there. she obviously can't. and she was there!

quote:

GTFOOHWTBS.

what the hell is this?

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Condoning and endorsing non-combatant casualties as being part of the price of war is a disgusting concept anyone could warrant. To be honest anyone that would even come close to this thought process has to have some mental flaws.

i agree

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo what the hell is this?

Get The Fuck Out Of Here With That Bull Shit.

I was quite pleased that it only took me about 10 seconds to figure it out. I'm so web savvy.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I'm so web savvy.

wow. you ever get the feeling you may be doing this for too long?

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Originally posted by Renegade If the US military - and so, by extension, the US itself - wishes to maintain its moral authority or its fundamental credibility concerning the occupation of Iraq, then they will investigate matters like this and punish those who have committed wrongs to the full extent of the law. If they allow marines to get away with murder without even going through the process of investigating the crime, then it will only serve to undermine the legitimacy of the current occupation and to endanger the lives of US troops in the long-run. All allegations levelled against the conduct of marines in Iraq need to be investigated thoroughly and transparently: is that really too much to ask?

+1
and not all at (@ your 'too much to ask' question).
The U.S. is a nation of laws and those involved should all be charged accordingly.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Q5: GTFOOHWTBS.

no.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Condoning and endorsing non-combatant casualties as being part of the price of war is a disgusting concept anyone could warrant. To be honest anyone that would even come close to this thought process has to have some mental flaws.

Its not condoning or endorising non-combatant casualties as b eing a part of the price of war. Its realizing humans are humans and murder is murder, and murder will happen and has happened since the story of Cain and Abel....

The argument isn't this is the price of war, the argument is, you got a bunch of your not most clever folks (mostly university uneducated, poor, immigrants, and so forth who couldn't find another way to pay for college or a less risky career path (this is not to categorize all like this of course, but you have these)), and therefore you see the same problem in Iraq with those type of people as you see in the USA just expressed in a different manner.

Guys who kill there girlfriends who cheated on them are no more or less likely to kill Iraqis connect or not connect to a death of one of their closes buddies.

You see the trend?

Instead of another killing here in our streets over some trivial "personal fued" or what not, we export the same source that would over react in the USA to Iraq.

I guess the only real winners out of this are the cheatting girlfriends.

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quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo okay. you've made it clear. you are not interested in context. murder is murder. my guess would be Renegade isn't either. ...and no matter where you stand at any given moment about any given murder, the wanton killing of civilians by the U.S. military has been and will always remain an anomaly of it's conduct. (i'm paraphrasing someone btw)

I'm interested in context, but the fact is that in this case - as with most others - the context just doesn't really alter the severity the situation. 24 innocent people were slaughtered without just cause and I'm not sure what pertinence, if any, the conduct of the marines prior to this incident has to the case at hand. I'm willing to believe that the marines involved are normally great guys and that their actions were completely out of character, but to what extent does this mitigate what they did? I'm sure that you could find excuses for most criminals if you were willing to accomodate "context" and "prior behaviour" into your judgement of them - but where would that leave us? At what point can we admit that people, regardless of their "context", are ultimately responsible - in both a moral and a legal sense - for the actions they perform?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Its not condoning or endorising non-combatant casualties as b eing a part of the price of war. Its realizing humans are humans and murder is murder, and murder will happen and has happened since the story of Cain and Abel....

Naturally, but I'm not sure what your angle is here. Murder may well be an inexorable facet of human nature, but does that make it any less worthy of condemnation? Is a murder in a place where murder is common any better than a murder in a place where it isn't?

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I don't think there's much arguement in what happened here; although innocent until proven guilty right?
I for one wouldn't want to be on the end of that military investigation.

It certainly looks like a clear case of vigilantism though.
I know you're supposed to look after your brothers back and all but DAMN.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Q5echo no.

So where supposed to be ok with summary execution?

Everyone is ok with that until it is them that looks down the barrel of a gun wondering how it happened to be them.

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Originally posted by Yoepus The argument isn't this is the price of war, the argument is, you got a bunch of your not most clever folks (mostly university uneducated, poor, immigrants, and so forth who couldn't find another way to pay for college or a less risky career path (this is not to categorize all like this of course, but you have these)), and therefore you see the same problem in Iraq with those type of people as you see in the USA just expressed in a different manner.

"It's the environment and not the child" whose at fault story.

Didn't mommy and daddy teach them that killing is wrong to begin with?

Oh I forgot the service breaks the individual into a collective mindset where right is wrong and wrong is right. So killing in war is ok because it's a war.

The only people that benefit from war ar the ones that make the hardware and hold the loans. Because last time I checked there was no such thing as a MP5 tree.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't think there's much arguement in what happened here; although innocent until proven guilty right?

Where's the family's rights when it came to being home? We're supposed to ignore that aren't we?

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 So where supposed to be ok with summary execution?

no! who in the hell is telling you this? do you hear voices? is there someone in the room with you right now?

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Everyone is ok with that until it is them that looks down the barrel of a gun wondering how it happened to be them.

thank you Dr. King, but not everyone is okay with it.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Where's the family's rights when it came to being home? We're supposed to ignore that aren't we?

I never said that so don't put words in my mouth.
Everyone gets a fair trial so lets just hold back that noose Jeb...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."