The Hizbollah hasn't "won" last time LMFAO. That's the dumbest piece of popaganda I've seen here. Only a Hizbollah supporter would write something so ridiculous.

The Hizbollah is PART of the Lebanese government, and the Lebanese government hasn't condomn the Hizbollah Katyusha attacks, so which is it?

Like I said, Israel is right and all those who think otherwise are wrong. It's no longer a two sided story - you're either on the side of TERRORIST who wish destruction on Israel and America, or you're on the side of Israel.

End of story

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles The Hizbollah hasn't "won" last time LMFAO. That's the dumbest piece of popaganda I've seen here. Only a Hizbollah supporter would write something so ridiculous.

Can you tell me why and for what ends Hizballah was established?

quote:

The Hizbollah is PART of the Lebanese government, and the Lebanese government hasn't condomn the Hizbollah Katyusha attacks, so which is it?

Well you said it yourself in capitals...it is a part of the government, not the government. In fact, Shiites are not allowed to be President or Prime Minister so they only return MPs. And as for the Lebanese government not condemning the Katyusha rockets, why should they? Israel started to bomb the shit out of their country before any rockets were fired. Now I agree with Hizballah firing rockets into Haifa about as much as I agree with Israel masacring over 600 people, but it is crystal clear that Hizballah rockets are in retaliation (and don't give me any crap about Israel's actions being to free those soldiers because we both know that's not true)

quote:

Like I said, Israel is right and all those who think otherwise are wrong. It's no longer a two sided story - you're either on the side of TERRORIST who wish destruction on Israel and America, or you're on the side of Israel.

What's the difference between a terrorists actions and those of Israel? I'll tell ya - more die at the hands of Israeli action...

Altho that comment adds to what I suggested earlier - that you have been given a predetermined opinion (that means your opinion is not formed by yourself btw) about actors and events in the Middle East - and I'm going to stick my neck out and guess you're either a right-wing Jewish person, or, more likely, you're a right-wing Christian person. Am I right?!

quote:

Originally posted by jdat If Iran didn't supply hezbollah with missiles this mess ( well ... you know what I mean ... let's not start debating the past etc etc ) wouldn't have started.

Fact is that Iran is supporting hezbollah I didn't ignore that?


youpus? Did I ever said that I want them dead...?? Thank God im not stuck in those extreme ideologies like the most of the zionists do in my opinion every indivual has the right to live.

Last edited by Dunya on Aug-01-2006 at 20:36

Actually, politically my views tend to side with Democrats much moreso then Republicans.

I'm all for women having the right to an abortion, and I have no problems with gays or other minorities getting more rights.
I also don't believe in this whole Intelligent Design theory which is trying to challenge evolution.

I do believe the United States government, when it comes to foreign policy, tries to do just as much good as its allies in Europe, and this is regardless of whether it's a Democratic or Republican administration.

I'm glad the American, and increasingly the European, public has had enough of radical/fascist moslims. The turning points were
a) 9/11
b) The cartoons in a Denmark newspaper

A bunch of fucking cartoons, a bunch of caricatures, and you all of a sudden saw millions of ignorant and radical fasicsts taking to the streets, burning American and European flags, storming embassies, and more.
That's why the West gives two shits about these people who are now out in the streets again burning American flags. The western public feels these extremists will take up any excuse to "demonstrate" its hate for the west. These radicals should take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming everything on the wealthy and prosperous countries of the West.

Now If Iran, the great satan of terrorism, is dumb enough to try and launch an attack on America, it'll soon realize that every country in Europe, as well as countries like India, Brazil, Australia, Japan, and others will automatically be at war with Iran as well. Same is true if Iran were to try and attack France, the UK, Germany, Italy, or Denmark.

The thing of it is that the West is all in this together with this war on terrorism, whether it likes it or not.
Whether it's riots from a bunch of radical youths on the streets of Paris, bombings in an Australian resort in Bali, Western embassies in several countries, train stations in Spain, and more. This problem won't go away until you deal with it at its root, and you deal it a severe blow.

What I'm saying is not some form of propaganda. It's reality, and it's what I believe in.
The innocent children in Quana? Casualties of war, just like the dozens of innocent teenagers at a Tel Aviv nightclub were a few years back.

Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Actually, politically my views tend to side with Democrats much moreso then Republicans. I'm all for women having the right to an abortion, and I have no problems with gays or other minorities getting more rights. I also don't believe in this whole Intelligent Design theory which is trying to challenge evolution.

And? ...What d'ya want? A medal???

quote:

I do believe the United States government, when it comes to foreign policy, tries to do just as much good as its allies in Europe, and this is regardless of whether it's a Democratic or Republican administration.

Why do you believe that? Serious question (and I expect examples in your answer)

quote:

I'm glad the American, and increasingly the European, public has had enough of radical/fascist moslims. The turning points were a) 9/11 b) The cartoons in a Denmark newspaper A bunch of fucking cartoons, a bunch of caricatures, and you all of a sudden saw millions of ignorant and radical fasicsts taking to the streets, burning American and European flags, storming embassies, and more.

Gotta love the way you think those Danish cartoons are somehow as significant as 9/11! But then, reading your posts you seem to have a blatent disregard for human life so I guess it figures huh?

quote:

That's why the West gives two shits about these people who are now out in the streets again burning American flags. The western public feels these extremists will take up any excuse to "demonstrate" its hate for the west. These radicals should take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming everything on the wealthy and prosperous countries of the West.

You have not once even attempted to explain to me why you think it is that these protests occur. So I shall ask you - why does they hate America?

quote:

Now If Iran, the great satan of terrorism, is dumb enough to try and launch an attack on America, it'll soon realize that every country in Europe, as well as countries like India, Brazil, Australia, Japan, and others will automatically be at war with Iran as well. Same is true if Iran were to try and attack France, the UK, Germany, Italy, or Denmark.

I thought Afghanistan, no wait, Iraq was the great Satan of terrorism?! (Nice choice of words by the way, makes you sound like one of "them" - actually, I noticed that while you attempted, in your opening paragraph, to suggest I had the wrong idea about you, you didn't actually deny being a religious nutter...hmmmmm)

quote:

The thing of it is that the West is all in this together with this war on terrorism, whether it likes it or not. Whether it's riots from a bunch of radical youths on the streets of Paris, bombings in an Australian resort in Bali, Western embassies in several countries, train stations in Spain, and more. This problem won't go away until you deal with it at its root, and you deal it a severe blow.

And the "root" is? And to remove this "root" (and presumably terrorism with it) we need to what?

quote:

What I'm saying is not some form of propaganda. It's reality, and it's what I believe in.

And you got your ideas from where?

quote:

The innocent children in Quana? Casualties of war, just like the dozens of innocent teenagers at a Tel Aviv nightclub were a few years back.

And you don't mind about either of these groups of people being murdered?

Do you know what I find amusing about all your rants about Islamic fascists and how Lebanon deserves this? Lebanon is 40% Christian and their President is Christian too...

(But then 10% of Palestinians are Christian, and one of the most violent Palestinian terrorist groups was set up by a Christian, so maybe religious beliefs are not as significant in this conflict as you would like us to believe, which would suggest what? That the source of anger stems not from religion but something else, something shared between different types of people - treatment by Israel perhaps??)

Hey George, thanks for responding so quickly. I'll try to come up with some answers for you when I get back - gotta head out of the office for some meetings and dinner.

You have tried to keep the conversation intelligent, and you have asked some good questions, I'm not gonna deny any of that.

BTW, I'm NON-RELIGIOUS, or atheist. Or maybe I'm just agnostic, but I'm definitely not basing my views on some sort of religion I may have.

Georgey, no problem with you expressing your opinons, but lets get the facts straight instead of just making up whatever sounds good to support that opinion:

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Israel started to bomb the shit out of their country before any rockets were fired.

This is wrong, Israel started bombing the shit out of their country after Hezbullah launched a rocket barrage onto Northern Israel on July 12th (it was a divergenary tactic that preceded the ambush and kidnapping of its two soldiers later that day).

Also before the recent break-out of open hostilies and since Israel has pulled out of all Lebanese territory in 2000, Hezbullah has periodically launched rocket attacks into Israeli civilian centers.

quote:

Now I agree with Hizballah firing rockets into Haifa about as much as I agree with Israel masacring over 600 people

You are implying that Israel has massacred over 600 people, it has not, it has killed more than 532 Lebanese, according to the AP as of today. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801...anon_israel_662

"At least 532 Lebanese have been killed, including 461 civilians and 25 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas. The health minister says the toll could be as high as 750, including those still buried in rubble or missing. Fifty-four Israelis have died — 36 soldiers as well as 18 civilians killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks."

Also in the article: " Israeli Cabinet Minister Haim Ramon said the fighting to date had killed about 300 of Hezbollah's main force of 2,000 fighters, which does not include its less-well trained reserves."

quote:

it is crystal clear that Hizballah rockets are in retaliation

No it is not crystal clear, this is your opinion on the events.

quote:

What's the difference between a terrorists actions and those of Israel? I'll tell ya - more die at the hands of Israeli action...

Here's some free advice: Don't do standup.

quote:

Altho that comment adds to what I suggested earlier - that you have been given a predetermined opinion (that means your opinion is not formed by yourself btw) about actors and events in the Middle East

The same can be applied to you, changing facts on the ground to concur with your opinions and not vice versa. Perhaps you should take a dose of your own medicine? mm?

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Georgey, no problem with you expressing your opinons, but lets get the facts straight instead of just making up whatever sounds good to support that opinion: This is wrong, Israel started bombing the shit out of their country after Hezbullah launched a rocket barrage onto Northern Israel on July 12th (it was a divergenary tactic that preceded the ambush and kidnapping of its two soldiers later that day).

Yes that's right. I admit! (I was going on a time-line in the Guardian that first mentioned rockets on the 14th June so I'll let you off with that one!)

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus You are implying that Israel has massacred over 600 people, it has not, it has killed more than 532 Lebanese, according to the AP as of today. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801...anon_israel_662 "At least 532 Lebanese have been killed, including 461 civilians and 25 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas. The health minister says the toll could be as high as 750, including those still buried in rubble or missing. Fifty-four Israelis have died — 36 soldiers as well as 18 civilians killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks." Also in the article: "Israeli Cabinet Minister Haim Ramon said the fighting to date had killed about 300 of Hezbollah's main force of 2,000 fighters, which does not include its less-well trained reserves."

Well your own link says it might be upto 750 and at least 532, but I think the exact number is somewhat insignificant when we're talking about hundreds of people no?

quote:

The same can be applied to you, changing facts on the ground to concur with your opinions and not vice versa. Perhaps you should take a dose of your own medicine? mm?

If you want to make the same accusation to me as I made to him then you can tell me what my predetermined views are and where I go them from? Bare in mind I'm not Muslim or Jewish/Israeli (unlike some) or even American.

I have admitted I was wrong about the rockets (my source was oversimplified altho if I really wanted to stick to my guns and save my blushes I can turn around and say that was just the Israeli version of events, as there are sources stating the two soldiers were captured inside Lebanon, but I wont) but if you want to keep that up then fine. I would however ask you to comment on everthing else I have said and give your own views on whats happening. Was Qana justified in your eyes for example?

My view on the whole situation is that elements of Hamas did not want the compromise they were about to reach with Fatah over rocognising Israel so provoked Israel into an attack which would ensure that compromise was never reached (by kidnapping the solider). They either did that cos they simply hate Israel or they were motivated by the family killed on the beach by Israel. Hizballah capturing the two soldiers is, in my opinion, unrelated (the timing was simply opportunist) I take the Israeli view **shudders** that they were under orders from Iran to deflect attention away from it's nuclear program at the G8. So as you can see I have no sympathy for what either Hamas or Hizballah have done (especially Hizballah who were unprovoked - unless of course the soldiers were inside Lebanon then it would be provokation). However, I am furious at Israel's response to the kidnapping of three soldiers with the deaths of well over 600 people. Now you tell me Yoepus, is Israel trying to rescue soldiers? That was the excuse given for the incursions into Gaza and Lebanon. If they wanted to secure their northern border then why has Beirut been flattened? Why are radar stations in the north being targeted?!

Now I have sympathy for the Israelis who have been killed over the years by these rockets but how exactly are these military operations going to increase your security?! A new Intifada seems inevitable and 100s of Israelis will die because of what your government is doing. Do you really see it differently?

As for Hizballah, do you think levelling a country will reduce their numbers or swell support? Israel tried to occupy Southern Lebanon before and failed, what makes you think this time will be any different? Israel wants a multinational force to take it's place* there but as soon as their death toll gets into double figures they're out of there and Hizballah will be back with a vengence.

Do you actually realise how close we were to making some real progression before Israel sent half it's army into Gaza to "rescue" one soldier? Can you imagine the strides Israel could have made had Hamas recognsied Israel like the PLO did? Guess it begs the question of whether Israel really wants that???








* imo any international force deployed in Southern Lebanon should enforce a no fly-zone with surface to air missiles to prevent their death toll reaching double figures at the hands of Israeli pilots like the UN!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well your own link says it might be upto 750 and at least 532, but I think the exact number is somewhat insignificant when we're talking about hundreds of people no?

Yea mute point. My argument was with the yellow journalistic sensationalism of the term 'massacre'.

quote:

If you want to make the same accusation to me as I made to him then you can tell me what my predetermined views are and where I go them from? Bare in mind I'm not Muslim or Jewish/Israeli (unlike some) or even American.

Eh too lazy to make the accusation... But err you are a liberal propagated European colonial guilt-trip induced, university biased communist?

I have admitted I was wrong about the rockets (my source was oversimplified altho if I really wanted to stick to my guns and save my blushes I can turn around and say that was just the Israeli version of events, as there are sources stating the two soldiers were captured inside Lebanon, but I wont)[/quote]

Yea!

Yoepus: 1
Georegy: 0

I'm just jesting.

But as for the claim that Israel was in Lebanese territory, I find completely BS, not because of any media report says this or that, but when you realize who was kidnapped (1 reservist (as in, called up for the 1 month a year mandatory military service) and 1 druz). These weren't your special-ops folks who would have been the people had Israel decided it wanted to go adventuring for a picnic amongst Hezbollah fortifications in Lebanon.

quote:

but if you want to keep that up then fine. I would however ask you to comment on everything else I have said and give your own views on whats happening. Was Qana justified in your eyes for example?

Everything?! I'm not gonna comment on everything. I've been sticking out of this one by in large.

But my take on Qana, is, I don't really know. Haven't made up my opinion on it really. I believe had Israel known there were so many civilians there, even if Hezbollah fired Katyusha rockets from there, intentionally using them as shields, Israel should not have attacked those launchers (say unless they were firing WMDs or they were not Katyushas but missiles capable of pinpoint accuracy and ranges as far as Tel Aviv).

From the other view, is targeting Hezbollah launchers even if they are in dense civilian areas wrong?

I don't agree.

Its not Israel’s responsibility to ensure that Lebanon's militias obey the laws of war and since they chose not to, I don't really see the ethical issue, although I do see the emotional aspect in all that.


Should Israel be condemned because it consciously chooses to place its military facilities miles from its population center, thereby ensuring Israeli civilians are not targeted and killed for military reasons?

It’s really hard to condemn Israel in this case for abuses that were brought about by Hezbollah. Had Hezbollah chosen as its policies to shot rockets and mount its military operations in the forests or plains away from the civilian centers, this crisis, in my mind, most definitely would have been averted and all those children would have been alive today.

So I am uncertain where to place the blame yet. A lot depends if Hezbollah did operate rockets from there (from what I understand it did, repeatedly, and the Israeli army announced the village citizens to evacuate repeatedly as well)?

And if so was Israel aware of the civilians in the location (maybe they thought there were few or none left..) ?

Ok since that spiel got nowhere, onto other things...

quote:

They either did that cos they simply hate Israel or they were motivated by the family killed on the beach by Israel.

My opinion is they hate Israel. Just FYI, official Israel investigation into that incident concluded the family was killed by Palestinian mines intended to thwart any amphibious invasions. Israel initially apologized for the incident believing its artillery went amuck, but later repealed that apology after the conclusion of the investigation.

quote:

However, I am furious at Israel's response to the kidnapping of three soldiers with the deaths of well over 600 people.

And I am furious at the Lebanese government, Hezbollah, and Hamas’s reaction. Instead of giving up, admitting defeat and returning the three soldiers in exchange of peace. They would rather see their kinsmen countries thrown back into the stone-age then admit they were wrong. But I guess no one expects much from these groups that fight behind their women and children and not in front of them.

quote:

Now you tell me Yoepus, is Israel trying to rescue soldiers? That was the excuse given for the incursions into Gaza and Lebanon. If they wanted to secure their northern border then why has Beirut been flattened? Why are radar stations in the north being targeted?!

Yes, I believe Israel is still trying to rescue its soldiers. It has obviously shifted to a secondary objective form the primary objective. Israel’s primary objective being to dismantle the Hezbollah infrastructure as much as possible without entangling itself by occupying the country.

As for Beruit flattened, see above paragraph about how Hezbullah does not situate their military installations outside of densely populated urban areas.

As for the radar stations, the costal ones have been used by Hizbullah, should Israel not assume then that other radar stations can as similarly by access by them?

I wish Arabs would realize the laws of war are there to protect the civilian populations they so dearly seem to cherish only when they are stricken by Israeli arms. The outcry should be poured into ensuring that the terrorist groups form themselves into militas operating by those laws to ensure that civilian casualties are minimized as much as possible.

quote:

Do you actually realise how close we were to making some real progression before Israel sent half it's army into Gaza to "rescue" one soldier? Can you imagine the strides Israel could have made had Hamas recognsied Israel like the PLO did? Guess it begs the question of whether Israel really wants that???

Aside from some little steps in Lebanon, I don’t think any progress was being made. Especially in the occupied areas, there progress was being lost. But I guess we live in different worlds.

quote:

* imo any international force deployed in Southern Lebanon should enforce a no fly-zone with surface to air missiles to prevent their death toll reaching double figures at the hands of Israeli pilots like the UN!

Right! Genius! Let Hezbullah missiles fly right over the no-fly zone, but make sure any Israel war planes that go over to destroy those launchers get shot down! Brilliant! Quick, Georegy for UN Secretariat General!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley What's the difference between a terrorists actions and those of Israel? I'll tell ya - more die at the hands of Israeli action...

The word "Terrorism" is the greatest misnomer in the world today, its denotation is deliberately misconstrued by certain western governments and their media as a powerful propaganda tool, the words' ad hominem association with Islam allows western demagogic leaders to lead their countries into war. Australias sycophantic pro US and Israeli Prime Minister is currently criticising the ABC (Australias public funded television station) for calling Hezbollah "guerillas" rather than "terrorists" because he knows how useful this word is in shaping public opinion because of its irrational emotional attachment. I just wish people knew that there is more to the word than Towell Heads blowing themselves up for Allah because they hate our Western way of life.

State Sponsored Terrorism is when a country sponsors organisations that are involved in "terrorist" activities. (eg. Nicaraguan Contras were sponsored by the CIA) However _State Terrorism_ or State Sanctioned Terrorism is the systematic use of violence against civilians perpetrated by the state; eg. The armies of Indonesia and Russia in East Timor and Chechnya - Israel is one of the worst perpetrators in the world of State Terrorism.

"During the al-Aqsa Intifada, Israel engaged in tactics and controversial military operations that resulted in criticism of its policies and actions. According to Dr. Lev Grinberg, a political sociologist at Ben Gurion University, Israel's actions constituted state terrorism[6]. Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdoðan and CNN founder Ted Turner have also referred to some of the acts as examples of state terrorism.[7][8]
In a July 29, 2005 interview in the Nazareth-based Arab-Israeli newspaper Kul al-Arab, former Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni stated that "terror utilized by Israel in the territories is worse than Palestinian terrorism"[9]. - Wikipedia on "State Terrorism"

quote:

Wikipedia Kangaroo courts, torture, terror bombing, kidnapping, and extrajudicial execution are said to be common practices of state terror, often used to terrorize domestic and foreign populations by sovereign or proxy regimes.

1. Kangaroo courts:
It is believed that there are more than 8,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails, among them are 300 children under 18 and 100 women. Out of the 8,000 people imprisoned, how many will receive a fair trial? How many were imprisoned for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time? How many will ever get to see a court room? "In August 2004, 7,500 Palestinian political prisoners took part in a massive series of hunger strikes hoping to draw international attention and support to a campaign against the gross violations of their rights and against the appalling conditions under which they are being detained The prisoners demanded an end to torture, strip searches, lack of access to adequate medical treatment, arrest of children and inhuman practices against them, restricted or refused family visits, installation of thick glass barriers at visiting rooms, solitary confinement, over-crowded conditions and lack of adequate access to their lawyers."

2. Torture:
"Torture is not restricted to those who are detained, as Israeli forces have on several occasions subjected Palestinian civilians to unfathomable treatment. In mid October, The Guardian reported about a case where an Israeli army commander, Lieutenant Colonel Geva Saguy ordering a Palestinian boy to strip naked, held a burning paper under his testicles, threatened to ram a bottle into his anus, beat him and terrified the child by saying he would shoot him. Surprisingly the military court relieved him of his post, however, in most cases torture is justified by the military court and the interrogator is immune from the law. According to the Washington Post, Israeli forces have also recently started applying a practice known as "The Lottery", where any violator of a curfew is ordered to pick from folded pieces of paper that have different punishments written on them -- such as "broken leg," "smashed hand" or "smashed head" - and the soldiers then administer the selected punishment. It is believed that this practice lead to the recent death of Amran Abu Hamediye, 18, who Palestinian witnesses said was beaten severely around his head" (More available on Israeli torture here)

3. Kidnapping:
How many people have been illegally kidnapped by Mossad in Palestine and abroad?

4. Terror Bombing and Extrajudicial Killings:
"Military operations into Palestinian territory, the alleged harassment of Palestinian civilians by both military personnel and Israeli citizens, and the deaths of civilians during the assassination of Arab militant leaders have also resulted in human-rights criticism. For example, in 1982, an assassination attempt on Yasser Arafat killed 200 people when a Beirut apartment block was destroyed by an Israeli bomb, and in 1985, 73 people were killed in another assassination attempt on Arafat in Tunis." - Wikapedia on State Terrorism

How many other hundreds of civilians have been killed during extrajudicial assasination attempts on Palestinian militants and politicians? Does the means justify the ends? If you believe that Hamas leaders should be assasinated at any cost irrespective of the collatoral damage caused merely because Israel has branded them as "terrorists" then by that same logic it is also justified to assasinate "terrorists" like David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin (leaders of the terrorist group Irgun that later to became prominent members in the Israeli government) irrespective of how many Israeli civilians are killed. It is a shame that Ariel Sharon was not assasinated or tried for crimes against humanity for his culpibility in the Qibya and Sabra and Shatila massacres before he turned into a vegetable. This is one of many examples that epitomises the double standards and hypocrisy of Israels' foreign policy.

5. Collective Punishment

quote:

No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible."Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907, Article 50

How will the esculation of violence stop when the Israeli Defence Force systematically punishes the entire Palestinian and Lebanese poppulations for the actions of a few? Poverty breeds Extreemism and when the IDF vindictively bulldoze and bomb civilian houses, crops, buildings, and facilities to collectively punish the Palestinians and Lebanese people in retaliation to militant terrorism in Israel they create more poverty, more refugee camps, more extreemists, and consequently more terrorist attacks on Israel . It's in the squallid refugee camps that extreemists are winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinian and Lebanese youth whos entire livelihood has been destroyed by Israeli collective punishment.

6. Willful Killing of Civilians:
The IDF does not condone the willful killing of Palestinian civilians, yet despite their official stance this is a common occurance. Why? Because when their is so much vehemence between these nations and members of the Israeli army know that they can get away with murdering Palestinians and Lebanese civilians without so much as a slap on the wrist after a "kangaroo court" investigation by their military tribunal of course it's going to happen. And don't get me wrong, if a member of the Palestinian Authority were in the same position it would be no different, probably worse actually because they tend not to be as educated or concerned about how the outside world perceives their actions.

Last edited by tathi on Aug-02-2006 at 01:44