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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
You're right...to an extent....it's not that people are unwilling to change, but more likely that the concept of DJing is being "grandfathered" in...because when you've spent your whole life studying one artform to fanatic extremes, its hard to give up all thbose skills just because a better one came around. All those years, and all that practise goes wasted. The motorcycle is a far faster and superior vehicle, yet people still ride bikes.

I cutnpaste what I said in this thread here:

"The reason why most DJs stop playing vinyl is generally because they were never very good at playing vinyl in the first place. Ergo, they don't miss it when they switch to something else, and the new equipment probably gives them some added skills and techniques that they didn't have the aptitude to accomplish with vinyl anyway, so it's a step up for them to be better DJs.

REAL vinyl disc jockeys who have plied their trade for years and are exceptionally good at what they do will still cling to the artform. After spending that much time practising and honing your personal flavour on a specific aparatus, would you want to immediately throw it all away?

That is why you see trance and house DJs flocking to digital, because it neither disrupts nor interferes with the way they DJ. But I have yet to see one hip hop DJ carry around a laptop and Ableton."

Yeah, I kinda get what you are saying and it is true. But a lot of hip-hop dj's are using cd's since the Vinyl mode on cd turntables reflects that of a turntable pretty closely.

And I and am sure many others can say that going from vinyl to cd is very very easy. I find mixing and beatmatching on cd's to be a lot easier then mixing and beatmatching with vinyl.

I really don't see myself getting rid of my vinyl or turtables, ever. Like you said, I have put way too much time and money into it to just get rid of it like that. And that is probably the main reason why this discussion comes up because those who have vinyl are already biased towards the digital route. You can see that in almost every dj, even when they do make the switch. But I don't think it is smart not to adapt to everything available if you want to take dj'ing seriously because digital is already a big part of the scene, I think.

Old Post Aug-26-2006 15:04 
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luisjb82
Real Madrid Addict



Registered: Jan 2006
Location: home...

quote:
Originally posted by idoru
I really don't understand why people care. Use what you want to use, let other people use what they want to use. You're not better than someone for sticking with vinyl, and you're not better than someone for progressing with technology and using CDJs/Ableton/Timecode Software.

Simple.


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 15:05 
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by idoru
I really don't understand why people care. Use what you want to use, let other people use what they want to use. You're not better than someone for sticking with vinyl, and you're not better than someone for progressing with technology and using CDJs/Ableton/Timecode Software.

Simple.

Actually, it's not simple. If you intend to play out in a club, lounge or whatever and show up with a bag of records and all you have available are cd turntables you are screwed. Sure, it is simple if you only intend to play at home or gigs where you use your own equipment but if not then don't be upset when you can't play out somewhere because they don't have the equipment that you are used to.

Old Post Aug-26-2006 15:08 
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

Further to all this, I think there's some romanticism about vinyl. The DJ scratching and handling records on Tech 12s is an iconic image, the thing most people associate with the word "DJ". It's like dance music's guitar- it gives more of a performance and an image to the jock, almost like pulling off a killer scratch trick is on par with a guitarist pulling off a brilliant guitar solo.

Everyone owns a laptop, everyone has CDs and everyone has MP3s. They aren't very exotic. When a DJ is sat behind a laptop using Ableton or whatever, no matter how clever or inventive they're being, they're just a bloke sat at a computer, clicking a mouse. Not much of an image, is it? Vinyl lets them look and feel like someone who is part of a dark art- someone who's mastered something the crowd can't go home and find. There's no history to a laptop.


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 15:13  England
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luisjb82
Real Madrid Addict



Registered: Jan 2006
Location: home...

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
Actually, it's not simple. If you intend to play out in a club, lounge or whatever and show up with a bag of records and all you have available are cd turntables you are screwed. Sure, it is simple if you only intend to play at home or gigs where you use your own equipment but if not then don't be upset when you can't play out somewhere because they don't have the equipment that you are used to.


I think he meant that it is simple from the crowd's point of view... at least it is for me. Sure there are lots of people in the audience that claim they "prefer" vynils because they sound "better" however only a rather small, very tiny percentage of that crowd can actually tell the difference between vynils and cd's for instance. I for one can not "hear" the difference, therefore it is simple for me.


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 15:13 
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Mr.Mystery
Static Guru



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Vantaa

quote:
Originally posted by movingincircles


what can vinyl do that digital can't?

Survive a hard drive crash.


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 16:26  Finland
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isoterra
hi



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Nottingham, UK

quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
Survive a hard drive crash.


cds get affected by hard drive crashes?

Old Post Aug-26-2006 16:37 
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Mr.Mystery
Static Guru



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Vantaa

quote:
Originally posted by isoterra
cds get affected by hard drive crashes?

CDR's failing isn't all that uncommon.


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 16:44  Finland
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thoughtlessjex
Yakkity Yak



Registered: May 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Actually, there is a difference, and if you would sit down for a moment and listen, you can hear it: The truth is there is a low-end feedback humm coming from the decks to the mixer that creates a sort of "warmth" or lo-fi feel to the sound. Digital decks don't have this, so feel much more pristine, sharp and clearer. And also, as vinyl degrades with playing, it's never in perfect condition. It's smoothed and muddied around the edges, giving it an additional appeal. Most clubs today have vinyl and CD decks set up, with DJs being makeshift hybrids, using both digital and analog decks, hopping back and forth from vinyl to CDs all night long, I can tell in an instant, from across the room, sitting at the bar having a drink, at any point in the night whether the music is playing is coming from a digital or analog source.

The connection from my laptop to my stereo makes a feedback hum, and warm, lo-fi muddiness can just as easily be acheived in the production stage as it is after a vinyl is aged. Besides, the notion of a song that has been worn down and degraded being superior to the producer's intended degree of fidelity seems counter to the autonomy of artistic expression.

------------------------------------------

To be honest, the large scale move to digital will be good for the art of DJing. It will bring virtuosity back to the performance of the medium while people who DJ for the sole purpose of stringing music together are no longer diluting the talent. Because I won't call for the end of vinyl; I recognize it's use as its own art form. I just say that in regards to common playback, the differences in the two media are negligable, at best, so why continue to treat digital with such vitriol?


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Old Post Aug-26-2006 17:42  United States
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EXTREMUM
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2006
Location: New York, USA

quote:
Originally posted by JuB jUb Vinyl sounds better than CD/Digital, and is supported by so many audiophiles it's bordering on fact.


You'll need a very expensive turntable, to prove it.

Old Post Aug-26-2006 17:45  United States
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Ishkur
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC

quote:
Originally posted by thoughtlessjex
The connection from my laptop to my stereo makes a feedback hum


Everything produces a feedback hum. But an analog feedback humm is warmer, louder, better, and more noticeable. And great for dancing.

quote:
Originally posted by thoughtlessjex
, and warm, lo-fi muddiness can just as easily be acheived in the production stage as it is after a vinyl is aged.


Yeah, but it's quantized and rigid. Not fluent and natural. It's like the difference between a live drummer and a drum machine. A machine is perfect; it makes no mistakes. And that takes the human element completely out of the music process....the little off-time beats and flaws and errors--they're gone. That doesn't make the drum machine better, especially when the argument is that music is supposed to evoke an emotion and appeal to humanity, so why would you willingly want to strip the music of this esthetic?

It's like the old Japanese parable about how an orange with an ugly brown spot on it is better than a perfect, spherical, unblemished orange...the reasoning being is because it is THE ONLY orange with that brown spot on it. That makes it unique; an individual, something that separates it from all the other oranges. But a perfect orange? ...there's a million of those. So what.

If perfection is what we desired out of music, than 90% of the music today would not exist, because it came about because of accidents and mistakes at the production and manufacturing level, not because they were planned and thought-out ahead of time. The 303 and the 808--two of the most heralded pieces of equipment in electronic music history--were fucking abominations to the music they were trying to make....abortions to all musicians everywhere. Didn't work, shitty sound, wavered off key....absolute crap. But someone somewhere took a look at those gross errors and saw them as features.

The point is: More accurate does not mean better. Not everyone wants a sharper, clearer image. Not everyone wants hi-fi. Not everyone wants a perfect, unblemished orange. Not everyone wanted Dillon to go electric. This doesn't stem from fear of technology or luddite fears, it's simply personal preference. Sometimes lo-fi is better. Sometimes the washy, muddy, dirty, gritty analog sample is preferred over the perfect, exact, polished, overproduced pristine one.

There's something to be said for analogue rawness in music that digital has never--and will never--be able to encapsulate.


quote:
Originally posted by thoughtlessjex
Besides, the notion of a song that has been worn down and degraded being superior to the producer's intended degree of fidelity seems counter to the autonomy of artistic expression.


Nope. Wholly and factually wrong. It's not the DJ's job to play records in accordance with the producer's concrete instructions. It is the job of the DJ to kick the producer's sensitive tracking to the curb, tear his tracks apart, and recontextualize them in new forms and modes of his own choosing.

Any DJ who doesn't do this--who doesn't show complete and total antipathy to the producers who make his music--is not being a good DJ. And any producer who doesn't want a DJ to fuck with his "art" obviously doesn't understand the quality of being a producer.

Your job as a producer is to make music, not tell other people what to do with it.

quote:
Originally posted by thoughtlessjex
To be honest, the large scale move to digital will be good for the art of DJing. It will bring virtuosity back to the performance of the medium while people who DJ for the sole purpose of stringing music together are no longer diluting the talent.


Actually, the exact opposite is happening: Because of the ease of use and shallow learning curve of digital decks versus vinyl, the scene as a whole is now being inundated with very very VERY bad DJs who aren't very creative or interesting and have particularly narrow tastes in music (due to them not being engrossed in the scene for very long). Vinyl at least created a bottleneck of sorts, that whoever wanted to get into the profession had to pay their dues--to at least $1000/month record shopping--and ply their trade to work up their skills before they played out. That weeded out most of the fly-by-nighters who would normally lose interest and give up before they ever worked themselves up to their first paying gig. Now, thanx to the internet and auto-beatmatching plugins, a DJ can conceivably settle on a DJ name this morning, obtain a playlist this afternoon and spin at his first gig tonight.

I don't know about you, but I don't trust the musical knowledge, expertise and skillset of someone who's never set set foot inside a record store before. And there's nothing romantic about that.

Old Post Aug-27-2006 00:15  Canada
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bobba lou
you need some activator



Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Mp3s killed the black beauty

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Everything produces a feedback hum. But an analog feedback humm is warmer, louder, better, and more noticeable. And great for dancing.

thats why some producers still use hardware


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Old Post Aug-27-2006 01:09  United States
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