quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Holocaust denial = instant insanity. Everything else is subsidiary.

Well said. This is exactly why I take his other words much more seriously.

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quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Holocaust denial = instant insanity. Everything else is subsidiary.

You might want to take a look at this:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...926#post6625926

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You might want to take a look at this: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...926#post6625926

The site you linked in that thread (or rather the Iranian state run newspaper they quoted) seems to have left out a fairly important line from that speech:

quote:

In a speech broadcast live on state television on Wednesday, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the southern city of Zahedan: "They have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves. "If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...B69283105BF.htm

I'm not sure what else he could have meant by that?

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This is only a guess ofcourse (since I don't think Ahmadinejad is stupid enough to think it didn't happen at all, you'd truly have to be a fucking idiot to think it didn't occur). He probably thinks the figures (as far as the number of people killed goes) are exagerated or innaccurate or something. I know Urdu, which is heavily derived form Farsi amongst other languages. And I'm sure you've probably read stuff in the area of linguistics. If you translate Urdu to English, especially more literally, the meaning can get quite distorted (things in Urdu are generally expressed in a much more generalized and broad fasion whereas English is far more specific, like most proto-Germanic languages if I remember correctly). Since Urdu is quite similar to Farsi, I'm guessing his doubt about the figures got translates to "myth." That, ofcourse, is just a guess. But I had doubts about him saying eigther of those things in the first place. I mean, he may be a dick, but he's not nuts.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z This is only a guess ofcourse (since I don't think Ahmadinejad is stupid enough to think it didn't happen at all, you'd truly have to be a fucking idiot to think it didn't occur). He probably thinks the figures (as far as the number of people killed goes) are exagerated or innaccurate or something.

Which, so far as I understand it, is no different from other holocaust deniers. I don't think any of them try to argue that no Jews were killed in WW2 (afterall, it's pretty hard to argue against all photographic evidence we have and the continued existence of Auschwitz and other concentration camps) but rather that the number killed falls "only" in the tens of thousands or so, rather than the 6 million figure we have today. The facts in this case, however, are firm: 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War 2. Denial of this is fact, I'm afraid, tantamount to Holocaust denial.

(Besides, even if it could be credibly argued - as you say Ahmadinejad was arguing - that only, say, 10% of that number were actually killed by the Nazis, does that somehow make it any better?)

quote:

I know Urdu, which is heavily derived form Farsi amongst other languages. And I'm sure you've probably read stuff in the area of linguistics. If you translate Urdu to English, especially more literally, the meaning can get quite distorted (things in Urdu are generally expressed in a much more generalized and broad fasion whereas English is far more specific, like most proto-Germanic languages if I remember correctly). Since Urdu is quite similar to Farsi, I'm guessing his doubt about the figures got translates to "myth."

Given the construct of the speech, I'm not sure what other words could be substituted for the word "myth" here while retaining the fecundity of the rest of the quote. Keep in mind that I've quoted an al-Jazeera article (with the headline "Ahmadinejad: Holocaust a myth") here too, hardly a source likely to beat up a story from a pro-western perspective or with any shortage of trained Farsi-translators on hand...

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^^ I guess you're right.

EDIT: Although I wouldn't call holocaust revisionism "denial," especially considering most of the "revisonists" I've heard of are Jewish. Note: I don't really know a whole lot about holocaust revisionism to evaluate their arguments/research, mostly becuase I don't really feel the need to research that stuff and don't have doubts about accepted history as far as the holocaust goes.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Aug-25-2006 at 22:01

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z This is only a guess ofcourse (since I don't think Ahmadinejad is stupid enough to think it didn't happen at all, you'd truly have to be a fucking idiot to think it didn't occur). He probably thinks the figures (as far as the number of people killed goes) are exagerated or innaccurate or something. I know Urdu, which is heavily derived form Farsi amongst other languages. And I'm sure you've probably read stuff in the area of linguistics. If you translate Urdu to English, especially more literally, the meaning can get quite distorted (things in Urdu are generally expressed in a much more generalized and broad fasion whereas English is far more specific, like most proto-Germanic languages if I remember correctly). Since Urdu is quite similar to Farsi, I'm guessing his doubt about the figures got translates to "myth." That, ofcourse, is just a guess. But I had doubts about him saying eigther of those things in the first place. I mean, he may be a dick, but he's not nuts.

you are rationalizing.

More 'rhetoric' from insane dictators?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006082...ct_060825100753


I hope so..

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus More 'rhetoric' from insane dictators? http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006082...ct_060825100753 I hope so..

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont argue with the yanks nutter, they know best!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus More 'rhetoric' from insane dictators? http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006082...ct_060825100753 I hope so..

Or...

More 'rhetoric' from a democratically elected President?

Altho seeing as this particular democratically elected President is staunchly anti-America (anti-globalisation), and sits on top of huge oil supplies, I guess that defines him as an "insane dictator" by PNAC's criteria?

e2a: Of course what he says about Israel/Hitler is bullshit but I think it falls in the same category of the rhetoric coming out of Iran: Cocky leaders who oppose PNAC's strategy knowing they can say what they like to piss America off and get away with it with US forces stretched to breaking point...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Or... More 'rhetoric' from a democratically elected President? Altho seeing as this particular democratically elected President is staunchly anti-America (anti-globalisation), and sits on top of huge oil supplies, I guess that defines him as an "insane dictator" by PNAC's criteria?

No, when you start imprisoning the opposition and restricting the press, your a dictator.

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