quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo all i have to do is put this graghic up and you, as a Democrat, will use fear and paranoia to denounce or dismiss it as the "fASCIST Bushitler neocon cabal" screwing the world for their personal gain.

I guess I could mention the 15 American soldiers dead since Sunday, or the 67 dead here:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IBO171964.htm

The 50 dead there:

http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...e-C1-topNews-13

25 dead here:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30132634.htm

12 dead there:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/m...8/30/iraq.main/

and on and on, just those figures in the past 48 hrs., totaling something like 3400 dead a month right now. I guess using teensy little facts like that would be called using "fear" as some sort of tactic to you to get people to realize just how fucked up the situation there truly is, but I'll actually take your argument of the police gaining ground (no matter how corrupt a healthy portion of them are) and use that point. Let's use General Casey's point here:

quote:

"I don't have a date, but I can see over the next 12 to 18 months, the Iraqi security forces progressing to a point where they can take on the security responsibilities for the country, with very little coalition support," http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...aq/15397789.htm

As Bush has argued, we will use the generals on the ground to give us a time to head out or at least redeploy back to the large U.S. military bases as the Iraqi police takes over. Fair enough. Casey gave a rundown on progress in a 3 step process:

1. Training and equipping Iraqi forces: apparently completed.
2. "Put them in the lead, still with our support": 75% completed
3. Provide security themselves: sometime after the 12-18 months.

Sound about right? Okay, so we have a timeline of 12-18 months now of when the Iraqis can provide security to themselves, which would then entail our eventual pullout.

So what this Administration and his generals are claiming is that in essence, we are making progress, and that things are getting better, despite little tidbit stories like this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14564865/

just ignore that, things are getting better. So here's the point - why does it take 135,000 troops for step 3? Do we really need 135K soldiers to build the intelligence, logistical, and medical infrastructure that step 3 entails? Step 2 is nearly complete, so we can now hold Bush to a timeline of eventual withdrawal approx. 1 year from now. Excellent.

I and any logically thinking Democrat should now be supporting Casey's timeline. I see absolutely NO reason why we should be burdened down financially and with our American lives for step 3 whatsoever. Furthermore, I see no reason why step three should be an American endeavor whatsoever. Step 3 should entail a regional solution with international support. I would fully support that completely.

So in essence, I thank you for bringing out this point. Indeed if this is so-called "progress" as you and your talking head minions would claim, than we should fully support and get behind Casey's timeline. You have in essence finally created a timeline of your own, based on the "progress" reported here. If we can be so incredibly dismissive of the civil war breaking out, that's terrific by me. Let's all get together and support this timeline. And let's see exactly how well it will hold up under Bush.

Anyone really holding their breath at this point?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Oh yeah, let's also be dismissive of the Pentagon while we're at it:

quote:

Pentagon: conditions for civil war exist in Iraq WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Conditions that could lead to a civil war exist in Iraq, the Pentagon said in a new report on Friday, as the "core conflict" has changed into one pitting Sunni Muslims against Shi'ites, with the Sunni Arab insurgency overshadowed. The Pentagon's congressionally mandated report provided a sober assessment of the situation in Iraq over the past three months, saying attacks increased by 15 percent over the prior three months and casualties among Iraqis surged 51 percent. http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...GON.xml&src=rss

We MUST be dismissive of such reports, because that would entail using "fear".

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I guess using teensy little facts like that would be called using "fear" as some sort of tactic to you to get people to realize just how fucked up the situation there truly is.

no, using facts like that to inflate your ego will only hurt in addition to pointing out the obvious. the situation in Baghdad is f**ked up. no doubt about it. everyone and their dog (or Olberman) can use those attacks however they see fit. i won't try and stop you.
i just know that we'll turn the corner like we always do.

August proved the General's plan to move 12,000 from placated parts into Baghdad (where most of the attacks have now found themselves) has worked signifigantly.

less than 1/3 the casualties of the month of July that you guaged the conflict with. typical, but that doesn't matter to you.

quote:

As Bush has argued, we will use the generals on the ground to give us a time to head out or at least redeploy back to the large U.S. military bases as the Iraqi police takes over. Fair enough. Casey gave a rundown on progress in a 3 step process: 1. Training and equipping Iraqi forces: apparently completed. 2. "Put them in the lead, still with our support": 75% completed 3. Provide security themselves: sometime after the 12-18 months. Sound about right? Okay, so we have a timeline of 12-18 months now of when the Iraqis can provide security to themselves, which would then entail our eventual pullout. So what this Administration and his generals are claiming is that in essence, we are making progress, and that things are getting better, despite little tidbit stories like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14564865/ just ignore that, things are getting better. So here's the point - why does it take 135,000 troops for step 3? Do we really need 135K soldiers to build the intelligence, logistical, and medical infrastructure that step 3 entails? Step 2 is nearly complete, so we can now hold Bush to a timeline of eventual withdrawal approx. 1 year from now. Excellent. I and any logically thinking Democrat should now be supporting Casey's timeline. I see absolutely NO reason why we should be burdened down financially and with our American lives for step 3 whatsoever. Furthermore, I see no reason why step three should be an American endeavor whatsoever. Step 3 should entail a regional solution with international support. I would fully support that completely. So in essence, I thank you for bringing out this point. Indeed if this is so-called "progress" as you and your talking head minions would claim, than we should fully support and get behind Casey's timeline. You have in essence finally created a timeline of your own, based on the "progress" reported here. If we can be so incredibly dismissive of the civil war breaking out, that's terrific by me. Let's all get together and support this timeline. And let's see exactly how well it will hold up under Bush.

you don't think you logic is too simple?

Last edited by Q5echo on Sep-03-2006 at 02:33

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo no, using facts like that to inflate your ego will only hurt in addition to pointing out the obvious. the situation in Baghdad is f**ked up. no doubt about it. everyone and their dog (or Olberman) can use those attacks however they see fit. i won't try and stop you. i just know that we'll turn the corner like we always do.

Perhaps I'm a bit confused, but you agreed that Baghdad is fucked up, yet that somehow inflates my ego for me to point out the obvious? Mmm, 'kay.

I appreciate your optimism, and I wish I had it myself. You may not believe me, but my lack of optimism is not merely based on a silly disagreeance with Bush's policies (i.e. being a "Bush hater"). Not being optimistic for me is simply based on the given evidence on what we see so far. It's difficult to hear Bush, Rummy, Cheney, Condi, and Snow paint this lovely rosy picture of Iraq and brand all dissenters as Nazi sympathizers and political opportunists (which they NEVER politicize anything, of course), while then turning around and seeing such a grim Pentagon report from the folks who know exactly what's going on down on the ground and have no axe to grind.

This isn't a fucking political matter anymore. I wish it could merely be debated as such, but this is simply getting out of hand.

quote:

August proved the General's plan to move 12,000 from placated parts into Baghdad (where most of the attacks have now found themselves) has worked signifigantly. less than 1/3 the casualties of the month of July that you guaged the conflict with. typical, but that doesn't matter to you.

Sure it does, but I hardly agree it's a matter of a master plan going so well in the grand scheme of things.

quote:

you don't think you logic is too simple?

I thought you liked simple logic? Bush sure does, so what's wrong with the top general creating a timeline of events that we can simply base our actions upon? Besides, if things truly are in the progression of steps forward as Casey is depicting, I see no reason why we shouldn't support his notion in full, do you?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Optimism is just not very easy when you see things like this:

quote:

The most influential moderate Shia leader in Iraq has abandoned attempts to restrain his followers, admitting that there is nothing he can do to prevent the country sliding towards civil war. Aides say Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani is angry and disappointed that Shias are ignoring his calls for calm and are switching their allegiance in their thousands to more militant groups which promise protection from Sunni violence and revenge for attacks. . . . Asked whether Ayatollah al-Sistani could prevent a civil war, Mr al-Jaberi replied: "Honestly, I think not. He is very angry, very disappointed." He said a series of snubs had contributed to Ayatollah al-Sistani's decision. "He asked the politicians to ask the Americans to make a timetable for leaving but they disappointed him," he said. "After the war, the politicians were visiting him every month. If they wanted to do something, they visited him. But no one has visited him for two or three months. He is very angry that this is happening now. He sees this as very bad." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...9/03/wirq03.xml

Or this:

quote:

Sergeant Poetsch thought the United States was doing the right thing by toppling Saddam Hussein. But the Army, he says, does not have nearly enough troops to patrol the city effectively, and he says Hit's residents, unlike the people he encountered during his previous tour in Baghdad, do not want to have much to do with the Americans. "At the beginning, I was all for it," he said. "Saddam Hussein was not a good guy, and I always felt good that he is gone. But somehow it seems it seems that we lost direction. It is just hard for guys here to understand what we are doing. What makes it so significant if we can't have more manpower and better living conditions?" ... The loss of a comrade hit the platoon hard, as Sgt. Ryan Kahlor, 22, noted in an emotional letter to his parents in San Diego. "The world keeps turning and so does the fighting in Iraq," he wrote. "Yesterday, my soldier and friend was shot and killed. ...He is the first one in our platoon to be killed. His death has started an uproar of emotions in the platoon." "No one understands why we are here and what our mission is," Sergeant Kahlor added. "This war is lost. We aren't helping these people. We are just dying and getting injured." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/03/w...serland&emc=rss

There simply has to come a time when even the most ardent Bush supporters have to come to grips with reality. Merely "staying the course" is not a fucking plan. It holds no reachable, measurable goals. If Casey's plan is correct, then we shouldn't be seeing stories like these, hence my whole point in posting it.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...