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Originally posted by Q5echo no, there are finite reasons why Clinton never got Bin Laden. mostly were his own decision.

Much as there are why Bush hasn't/won't get Bin Laden. Had the US put half the forces into Afganistan that they did in Iraq Bin Laden would be captured by now. My guess is that GHWB's pals from Saude Bin Laden Group politely asked him to call off the dogs and GWB defered to his old man (granted this is simply conjecture there are many other possible reasons, unfortunately none of them have to do with the security of the US).

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Much as there are why Bush hasn't/won't get Bin Laden. Had the US put half the forces into Afganistan that they did in Iraq Bin Laden would be captured by now. My guess is that GHWB's pals from Saude Bin Laden Group politely asked him to call off the dogs and GWB defered to his old man (granted this is simply conjecture there are many other possible reasons, unfortunately none of them have to do with the security of the US).

yeah, but we're talking about Clinton. what were his reasons?

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Originally posted by tathi but hey, i bet us leftists all look the same to you

on my computer screen, yes.

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Originally posted by kush paintings In short, taking wisdom of politics from Ann is like learning about safe-sex from Pamela Anderson.

So, it is a good idea to listen to Ann?

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campaign of the Clinton acolytes to kill an ABC movie that relies on the 9/11 Commission Report,

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Islamic jihadists attacked America year after year throughout the Clinton administration

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The first month Clinton was in office, Islamic terrorists with suspected links to al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein bombed the World Trade Center.

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For the first time ever, a terrorist act against America was treated not as a matter of national security, but exclusively as a simple criminal offense. The individual bombers were tried in a criminal court. (The one plotter who got away fled to Iraq

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In 1995 and 1996, various branches of the Religion of Peace -- al-Qaida, Hezbollah and the Iranian "Party of God" -- staged car bomb attacks on American servicemen in Saudi Arabia, killing 24 members of our military in all.

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Clinton turned down Sudan's offer to hand us bin Laden in 1996. That year, Mohammed Atta proposed the 9/11 attack to bin Laden.

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Clinton refused the handover of bin Laden because -- he said in taped remarks on Feb. 15, 2002 -- "(bin Laden) had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him."

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there was not even an indictment filed after the bombing of either Khobar Towers (1996) or the USS Cole (2000). Indictments were not filed until after Bush/Ashcroft came into office.

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In August 1998, three days after Clinton admitted to the nation that he did in fact have "sex with that woman," he bombed Afghanistan and Sudan

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The day of Clinton's scheduled impeachment, Dec. 18, 1998, he bombed Iraq

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In October 2000, al-Qaida bombed the USS Cole, killing 17 sailors and nearly sinking the ship. Clinton did nothing

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Attorney General Janet Reno "thought retaliation might violate international law and was therefore against it."

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CIA Director George Tenet "wanted more definitive proof that bin Laden was behind the attack, although he personally thought he was."

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Secretary of State Madeleine Albright "was concerned about the reaction of world opinion to a retaliation against Muslims and the impact it would have in the final days of the Clinton Middle East peace process."

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Secretary of Defense William Cohen "did not consider the Cole attack 'sufficient provocation' for a military retaliation."

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Less than a year after Clinton's final capitulation to Islamic terrorists, they staged the largest terrorist attack in history on U.S. soil. The Sept. 11 attack, planning for which began in the '90s, followed eight months of President Bush

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Clinton's own campaign adviser on Iraq, Laurie Mylroie, says Clinton and his advisers are "most culpable" for the intelligence failure that allowed 9/11 to happen.

does anybody want to dispute any of this? i got all night. i'll understand if you don't.

that represents pretty much half of her article. the other half is humor and hyperbole.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid So, it is a good idea to listen to Ann?

Pam has hepatitis c and god knows what else.

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Lost Souls

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Originally posted by Q5echo does anybody want to dispute any of this? i got all night. i'll understand if you don't. that represents pretty much half of her article. the other half is humor and hyperbole.

Humor as in, ha ha humor, or humor as in "I can't believe someone can write this shit with a straight face" humor? Ehh, subject to opinion I guess. Coulter isn't worth the piss I'd shower her with, but since you took out the hyperbole (which really is more than just half the article with her), I'll address as many points as I can:

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campaign of the Clinton acolytes to kill an ABC movie that relies on the 9/11 Commission Report,

This is the most important one, I believe, since it's the basis for her entire column. It's also the most patently and blatantly false claim made. For example, the Tarnak Farms raid in which Clinton supposedly had the opportunity to get bin Laden but blew it. It depicted Clinton as the one who blew it but tried to shift the blame on Tenet.

Well let's see what the Commission reported on that gem:

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Military officers reviewed the capture plan and, according to "Mike," "found no showstoppers." The commander of Delta Force felt "uncomfortable" with having the tribals hold Bin Ladin captive for so long, and the commander of Joint Special Operations Forces, Lieutenant General Michael Canavan, was worried about the safety of the tribals inside Tarnak Farms. [...] The Counterterrorist Center planned to brief cabinet-level principals and their deputies the following week, giving June 23 as the date for the raid, with Bin Ladin to be brought out of Afghanistan no later than July 23. On May 20, Director Tenet discussed the high risk of the operation with Berger and his deputies, warning that people might be killed, including Bin Ladin. Success was to be defined as the exfiltration of Bin Ladin out of Afghanistan. A meeting of principals was scheduled for May 29 to decide whether the operation should go ahead. The principals did not meet. On May 29, "Jeff" informed "Mike" that he had just met with Tenet, Pavitt, and the chief of the Directorate's Near Eastern Division. The decision was made not to go ahead with the operation. "Mike" cabled the field that he had been directed to "stand down on the operation for the time being." He had been told, he wrote, that cabinet-level officials thought the risk of civilian casualties -- "collateral damage" -- was too high. They were concerned about the tribals' safety, and had worried that "the purpose and nature of the operation would be subject to unavoidable misinterpretation and misrepresentation-and probably recriminations-in the event that Bin Ladin, despite our best intentions and efforts, did not survive."2 [...] Tenet told us that given the recommendation of his chief operations officers, he alone had decided to "turn off" the operation. He had simply informed Berger, who had not pushed back. Berger's recollection was similar. He said the plan was never presented to the White House for a decision.3 The CIA's senior management clearly did not think the plan would work. Tenet's deputy director of operations wrote to Berger a few weeks later that the CIA assessed the tribals' ability to capture Bin Ladin and deliver him to U.S. officials as low. http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch4.htm

Now does that sound like Clinton aborted the plan at the last minute to you? Who aborted this plan and when? Clinton or Tenet?

Albright weighs in as well:

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While I have requested a copy of the broadcast, I have yet to receive one. I have been informed by some who had been given the right to view the broadcast that the drama depicts scenes that never happened, events that never took place, decisions that were never made and conversations that never occurred; it asserts as fact things that are not fact. For example, one scene apparently portrays me as refusing to support a missile strike against bin Laden without first alerting the Pakistanis; it further asserts that I notified the Pakistanis of the strike over the objections of our military. Neither of these assertions is true. In fact, the 9/11 commission reports states (page 117), “Since the missiles headed for Afghanistan had had to cross Pakistan, the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was sent to meet with Pakistan’s army chief of staff to assure him the missiles were not coming from India. Officials in Washington speculated that one or another Pakistani official might have sent a warning to the Taliban or Bin Ladin.” http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.co...ht%20letter.doc

Now is the Commission report somehow subject to interpretation to you and Coulter, or shall we rightfully conclude Coulter is absolutely full of shit with this view?

Or how about Sandy Berger slamming down the phone?:

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“Sandy Berger did not slam down the phone,” Mr. Nowrasteh said. “That is not in the report. That was not scripted. But you know when you’re making a movie, a lot of things happen on set that are unscripted. Accidents occur, spontaneous reactions of actors performing a role take place. It’s the job of the filmmaker to say, ‘You know, maybe we can use that.’ ” http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/07/w...r=1&oref=slogin

There's of course the mention that Clinton refused to hand over bin Laden in '96, a favorite claim by Coulter and her acolytes. What exactly did Clinton say about Sudan?:

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CLINTON: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [Al Qaeda]. We got -- well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.

And what did the Commission have to say about that?:

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Former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim. Sudan did offer to expel Bin Ladin to Saudi Arabia and asked the Saudis to pardon him. U.S. officials became aware of these secret discussions, certainly by March 1996. The evidence suggests that the Saudi government wanted Bin Ladin expelled from Sudan, but would not agree to pardon him. The Saudis did not want Bin Ladin back in their country at all. http://www.9-11commission.gov/heari...statement_5.pdf

As for citing Mylroie, Jesus that doesn't do Coulter any favors (and admittedly any for Clinton for putting her on his staff. This is the same person who believed Saddam was behind the '93 attacks on WTC. It's bad, real bad:

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/t...y-the-cia/2445/

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fe...312.bergen.html

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4616755/

Note the criticisms from Bush's boys including Perle and Wolfowitz. Wonder why she is an American Enterprise Institute adjunct scholar? Great source there Ann.

I'll try to get more later. Two exams to study for tomorrow.

And as I noted earlier, the criticisms were not just from those darn libruls:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=368257

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 There's of course the mention that Clinton refused to hand over bin Laden in '96, a favorite claim by Coulter and her acolytes. What exactly did Clinton say about Sudan?:

tell me something. if it was known that the Sudanese wanted Bin Laden out of their country, whether he be extridited to the U.S. like many claim, or returned to Saudi Arabia like Clinton claimed, why does Clinton recieve a pass for any and all of it?

as i understand it, clinton tried many times to get bin laden, through arrest, capture or assassination. for many reasons it didnt come to pass. clinton was extraordinarily frustrated with the CIA and their lack of success. other instances were called off because of the low chance of success combined with fears of collateral damage.

clinton may have dropped the ball, but id like to know why youre giving bush a free pass. he's had 5 years to catch bin laden, and 911 occurred on his watch. at least clinton was aware of the threat and certainly made many attempts to extinguish it. bush didnt know a terrorist from a hole in the ground before 911.

id like to know if/why bush gets a pass from you for his 9 months with his head up his arse, and then 5 years failing to get bin laden.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Albright weighs in as well:

yeah dude your timing is off. Coulter's quote was from a meeting in 2000 following the Cole attack.

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Originally posted by Q5echo tell me something. if it was known that the Sudanese wanted Bin Laden out of their country, whether he be extridited to the U.S. like many claim, or returned to Saudi Arabia like Clinton claimed, why does Clinton recieve a pass for any and all of it?

For this particular instance, the Commission I believe answered your question. There was simply insufficient evidence to believe Clinton was somehow responsible for this affair.

If, however, you're referring to Clinton's overall performance on going after al Qaeda, then I would agree that he should not get a free pass on it in general. He had some bright moments, but overall there's no doubt he could have stepped up to the plate better.

Then again, so could have Bush I. So could have the GOP-controlled Congress throughout the 90's. And so could have Bush II for the first 8 months. I give no one free passes. What I will NOT support, however, is dipshit shills like Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, and the rest of the Noise Machine who purport the fault being all and entirely Clinton and the libruls, just as I will not excuse folks on the extreme left believing 9/11 was entirely Bush's fault (or even worse, Bush planned the whole damn thing).

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...