quote:

Originally posted by teo Of course not! USA did a big damage in Yugoslavia and shouldnt do the same or worst with Iraq. I think sometimes it was better when Russia was a strong country so USA and Russia could control each other. Now USA can do whatevere it likes. And i think too that the oils are the whole point in attacking Iraq . But we the Europeans cant do anything about that.

I couldn't have agreed more.

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well us knows hes been suppling the al queda with money .... so i believe hes a big part of the Al queda chain of funadge ...i believe hussian has been part of it from the start..... i think Us should go invade and take hussian out of control and put more of a world friendly inviroment in there.. Hussian willing fully said he supports al queda actions ..so ****** needs to be put to justices....... i wish some of u that live in europe would of watched the documentory that was on tv about what happened sept 11th here .... i mean close footage of what really happed from a documentary artist from france who for some reason was there to film a young man becomming a firefighter but went to film this tragady ..... i garentee if many of u watched this ..and saw what this really had to feel like and how this made those people feel at the time...... im serious u would strongly change ur mind about attacking those who are involved and responsible.... and if this happened in your country u would know how many americans feel...this isnt about who thinks us controls who and what...this is about the terrorist actions that occured on 11th... and sometimes the only way to fix this problem is to go in there and do it the old fashion way.....and you guys who say killing innocent people is wrong i agree ..but in this war in afgansitan ..innocent casualites is very minimal ...majority of people died in action were military people from both sides majority Al quede and taliban fighters..... beleive me iraq would be better off if Hussian was out of control and a resonble democracy or a civilized goverment which is ruled by the people rather then ruling the people... would make the country much better off..... look at afganistan right now ....majority of the people like it much better now that the taliban is out.... women have rights,people have right, everyone isnt dictated anymore........ i think for you people who say attacking iraq would be wrong ..are just simply saying they support a dictotorship government that is supressing the rights of h is own people...and if u agree to that then well i guess u can say going in to take hussian out is wrong..but otherwise we are doing the people in irag a favor.... the reason these people hate the us is the massive propogada that these leader shit put out negativily towards us ..... these people dont know any better they cant watch or listen to radio so the only media funtion is from husssian himself.. so how can people have a free opinion about someone or something if the media isnt free .... just myu thought si believe us should of went and taken him out of control long time ago .... and i bet hes the biggest person in the al queda supporter ...i belive he might even have many decisions in the al queda actions .... and like i siad before i garentee that if the tradgedy that happened in NY happened in your country or city ....ull think much different ...u would want those who are responsible to be found and caught .... i just hope that such things do not happen in your country before u relize what americans have to do is for the good of the whole world....Terriorism shouldnt be tolerated .... wheather its hate acts on someone to bombing the world trade center..... just IMO

quote:

Originally posted by teo Of course not! USA did a big damage in Yugoslavia and shouldnt do the same or worst with Iraq. I think sometimes it was better when Russia was a strong country so USA and Russia could control each other. Now USA can do whatevere it likes. And i think too that the oils are the whole point in attacking Iraq . But we the Europeans cant do anything about that.

well yugoslavian governement masacred thousand of thousand of muslims in that region .... so i dont think there a innocent victim they were just as the nazi were doing the to jew back in ww2...... if us or Un didnt get involved ...the masacres would strill be happening.....wonder if u can ask those who had there fathers and sons, mothers,daughters masacred if they think if was right for the US or UN to get involved ........ no country that is a democracy should ever tolerate a government who supresses the rights of his people or other people ..... and this should always be delt with...

Man, now that's what I call American point of view. So here are my contrarguments:

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Originally posted by TranceCluber well yugoslavian governement masacred thousand of thousand of muslims in that region .... so i dont think there a innocent victim they were just as the nazi were doing the to jew back in ww2...... if us or Un didnt get involved ...the masacres would strill be happening.....wonder if u can ask those who had there fathers and sons, mothers,daughters masacred if they think if was right for the US or UN to get involved ........ no country that is a democracy should ever tolerate a government who supresses the rights of his people or other people ..... and this should always be delt with...

Now what da hell are you talking about? You remind ww2... ok. My country was the one which suffers the most from the nazi. Together with Soviets they ruined the whole country and killed milions of citizens. You know, Majdanek is in the borders of my city so I know what I'm talking about. The whole Europe was ruined because of war. So you say Yugoslavians would thank Americans for bombarding their country. YOUR WRONG!!!! They hate Americans for this. In your opinion we Europeans don't understand 11 sept because we are here in Europe, not there in US. Therefore thinking the same, you Americans don't know what bombarding really is. Your country has never been bombarded in the whole history, except 11 sept. There was no harm for US in ww2 in their teritory. You don't know what war really is. The bombardings of Yugoslavia destroyed their economy and it will take decades to rebuild it. You are proud of Afghan war - nearly no citizen killed - so why da hell did you kill so many innocent people there in Yugoslavia? Another thing is you call the whole Yougoslavian ppl nazi! Man, you're sick! It was the government and Slobo's idea of 'Great Serbia' which started the war. The propaganda was for it, but ppl never really suported it. The regime exploated them as it was possible. So don't blame the whole nation for the war! Remember - Europeans have never forgotten ww2 and war is always the last thing we want.

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Originally posted by TranceCluber well us knows hes been suppling the al queda with money .... so i believe hes a big part of the Al queda chain of funadge ...i believe hussian has been part of it from the start..... i think Us should go invade and take hussian out of control and put more of a world friendly inviroment in there..................................

You want to take revenge on Osama and Al queda for 11 sept. I understand, those guys are barbarians, killing so many ppl can't be excused and they should be punished. No doubt about it. BUT you have never thought about one thing: WHY DID IT HAPPEN? Why did these guys do it? Why they hate Ametica so much? Here are the answers:
1) American policy supporting Israelis in exterminating Palestinians. Look what's going on there and think it would never be possible without US supporting it there! Palestinians hate Israelis for ocupating their teritory and killing them, but also hate you! They use terrorism - why? - because it's the only way they can fight! Israel has a large and modern army, what do Palestinians have?
2) Arabians hate America for their cultural expansion on their teritory. OK, they don't have full rights, etc. But is this the reason to destroy them? It's their culture, their tradition which pains so the US. IT'S THEIR OWN MATTER! You shouldn't ingerate into it.

As for Saddam, this man is sick, but you have no proof that he really has biological weapons. You made an embargo on them, your planes are patrolling their sky. So what - the Iraqis should love you for this? Propaganda - yes of course, but the people there are poor because of the embargo. They don't have anything else to export, so don't say they'll welcome you with open arms! You should have removed Saddam from the government 10 years ago. Now you have what you want. As I said, he is never excused for the invasion of Kuwait, but that's not the reason for declare war on him now!

What are you Americans really think? There'a a coutry with a government, a culture you don't like - let's attack them! Destroy them! Make the whole world one great United States with the capital in Washington! So what - you attack Iraq, and then what? You attack Iran, Northern Korea, and then what? You attack China, Russia, Europe, whole world? Because you don't like them?
Look what you're doing!!!!!

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PvD Planet

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Originally posted by vmc Man, now that's what I call American point of view. So here are my contrarguments: Now what da hell are you talking about? You remind ww2... ok. My country was the one which suffers the most from the nazi. Together with Soviets they ruined the whole country and killed milions of citizens. You know, Majdanek is in the borders of my city so I know what I'm talking about. The whole Europe was ruined because of war. So you say Yugoslavians would thank Americans for bombarding their country. YOUR WRONG!!!! They hate Americans for this. In your opinion we Europeans don't understand 11 sept because we are here in Europe, not there in US. Therefore thinking the same, you Americans don't know what bombarding really is. Your country has never been bombarded in the whole history, except 11 sept. There was no harm for US in ww2 in their teritory. You don't know what war really is. The bombardings of Yugoslavia destroyed their economy and it will take decades to rebuild it. You are proud of Afghan war - nearly no citizen killed - so why da hell did you kill so many innocent people there in Yugoslavia? Another thing is you call the whole Yougoslavian ppl nazi! Man, you're sick! It was the government and Slobo's idea of 'Great Serbia' which started the war. The propaganda was for it, but ppl never really suported it. The regime exploated them as it was possible. So don't blame the whole nation for the war! Remember - Europeans have never forgotten ww2 and war is always the last thing we want. You want to take revenge on Osama and Al queda for 11 sept. I understand, those guys are barbarians, killing so many ppl can't be excused and they should be punished. No doubt about it. BUT you have never thought about one thing: WHY DID IT HAPPEN? Why did these guys do it? Why they hate Ametica so much? Here are the answers: 1) American policy supporting Israelis in exterminating Palestinians. Look what's going on there and think it would never be possible without US supporting it there! Palestinians hate Israelis for ocupating their teritory and killing them, but also hate you! They use terrorism - why? - because it's the only way they can fight! Israel has a large and modern army, what do Palestinians have? 2) Arabians hate America for their cultural expansion on their teritory. OK, they don't have full rights, etc. But is this the reason to destroy them? It's their culture, their tradition which pains so the US. IT'S THEIR OWN MATTER! You shouldn't ingerate into it. As for Saddam, this man is sick, but you have no proof that he really has biological weapons. You made an embargo on them, your planes are patrolling their sky. So what - the Iraqis should love you for this? Propaganda - yes of course, but the people there are poor because of the embargo. They don't have anything else to export, so don't say they'll welcome you with open arms! You should have removed Saddam from the government 10 years ago. Now you have what you want. As I said, he is never excused for the invasion of Kuwait, but that's not the reason for declare war on him now! What are you Americans really think? There'a a coutry with a government, a culture you don't like - let's attack them! Destroy them! Make the whole world one great United States with the capital in Washington! So what - you attack Iraq, and then what? You attack Iran, Northern Korea, and then what? You attack China, Russia, Europe, whole world? Because you don't like them? Look what you're doing!!!!!

first of all please dont put words in my mouth ..... second no i dont believe the world shoudl be one US...i think u focus on hating the americans more then seeing the bigger picture ...there VMC.... u rather have had Milosovic still in power rather then us going int here and saving the people from getting massacred down there ...if thats true wow ur views have definatly blinded u.... same with sadam ... our embargo isnt the main reason why there people are poor... ..they would be poor no matter what ..... Saddam makes millions sitting there while his people starve so dont tell me that its because of the americans .... terriorism the only why to fight???? ur a fool..for saying that ...terriorism is a act of violence which exceeds any other cowardly act possible.. going and blowing up a building where people are not involved thats terriorism ...going and doing that to a military instaliation is a act of war at least i have respect for that more then terriors.....but terriorism is no excuses for it at all..... ok and what the fuck u saying i said Yugoslavian people are nazi's..... READ PAL!!!!!! i said clearly the Yugolavian "GOVERNMENT" which support masacres of there musilims in there country ....those acts are simialr to the ones brought out by the German Nazi's..in ww2.....I recomment u reading and understanding what u read before commenting on what i said..... u are saying things i didnt say and this is pissing me off....
and you say US didnt have anything bombarded on them in WW2....i recall dec 7th a historical day in our country when we were in not in war yet and were neutral when Japan bombed the shit out of us in Pearl Harbor thats when we said alright we have to do something about this......so dont blame us for comming in WW2


i believe ur anger towards america is making u give excuses to governments that are much worse then ours..... im not saying we are perfect and we might have many difference with many countrys and we do many things wrong....but we do give alot to this world .... and we help for the better.... U wish american would stop interviening .....tell me then who would ur perfect country would do if they saw a country killing millions of innocent people???? should we just sit back and relax and just watch??.... there has to alway be countries in the world that have to help the supressed and keep control the governments who want to supress the people and u should be happy for that ..cuz who knows u might live in a country who supresses ur rights and doesnt allow u to do anything .... ok and out no proof about irag having any invalvment..ok here the thing...one of the pilots that crashed into the NYE had a secret meeting in europe with a High ranking iragi offical....why would this happen unless irag had some sort of involvement...and i bet the goverments know much more then we civilions could know about who or who isnt involved .... and we dont go distroy cultures at all...america is full of every culture possible we have more ethic diveristy in our country then any country so dont say we want to distroy the culture of people.... and saying that we dont know what war is .... beleive me america has went through wars front to back from civil wars to revolutionary wars... we know a lot of what war really is .... but do we hate the english,french,etc.... no because thats the past and this is the future new tides new things ........
i dont favor isreal or Palastine i wish they could settle things peacefully i wish everything woudl be that easy but the fact is its not..... the US backs Isreal because the day we stop helping isreal out ..... GUESS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN...there would be a Middle easter war... u would have many countries attacking isreal .... and i know isreal did a fucked up thing to palastine and i can see why they are mad but both sides need to decide whats better for there people fighting or a resolve in this problem .... i think both parties are at fault ..u have one attack then other attacking them... so the us backs isreal not because they favor them over palastines they do this cuz it gives a balance over in the middle east like i said if they stoped it would cause another world war... well ill have to stop cuz no matter what there is a argument in this discussion .....and VMC next time please dont put words in my mouth half the stuff u said i didnt even say .... whether that is what u implied from my post well thats ur but dont assume that is what i ment cuz its bs to be putting words in peoples mouth....thats all i have to say ...... whether we all have different opinions about what would be the right thing to do ....i think we can all atleast say we all wish the best for everyone in this world...whatever happens is for the best ..whatever the best is we dont know... until it happens i guess..... in politics there is a black and white argument in anything about it .... in the broad term one has its strongs and week points in descussions..thats whats so amazing with political views in people... everyone has the same objective about the arguement to make things better wheather its the right way or wrong way......ok im tired of this argument Lol

quote:

Originally posted by vmc What are you Americans really think? There'a a coutry with a government, a culture you don't like - let's attack them! Destroy them! Make the whole world one great United States with the capital in Washington! So what - you attack Iraq, and then what? You attack Iran, Northern Korea, and then what? You attack China, Russia, Europe, whole world? Because you don't like them? Look what you're doing!!!!!

WELL..actually the U.S. is nto alone on launching an attack on Iraq....the majority of the Unired Nations supports it...and it has nothing to do with hating Hussein..its the fact that he refuses to alllow United Nations weapons inspectors in to inspect is arsenal and so forth.....so basically he is hideing something.....the United Nations...NOT just the U.S. has strong evidence supporting the fact thet Hussein has begun to build nuclear and chemical weapons of mass destruction ...SOOOOOOO if he continues to REFUSE to allow United Nations Inspectors in to check what hes up to then they will attack...

And it's not just the U.S. that is concerned about this many nations are because if decides to use those weapons then the ENTIRE world will be at war...those weapons if used against the U.S. will force us to respond with are own intercontinetal ballistic missiles and so will other nations...it will be WW3...

Also Iraq has been known to harbor terrorists and since the war on terrorism is still going on we will stop at nothing to free the world of terrorists that can and have done harm on the entire world NOT JUST the U.S..we are just the ones who have the balls to do it..

And just an added note...the bombing on Afghanistan made that country a thousand times better then what it was...and this is NOT according to U.S. officials it is according to the citizens of Afghanistan....this week was the FIRST week of school in many years that children can go and get an education and so many other things...but this is not really about Afghanistan...but just remember the U.S. made this possible for the Afghanistan people...find 1 other country that would do that...NONE....

And i really wish everyone would stop hating on the U.S....if its that freaken bad...tell me why so many people, more then an other country, immigrate here.,..why do so mnay why come here...why do so many risk persicution and death to get to America...more people move to the U.S. a year then from any other country in history...so give that a rest....

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

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Originally posted by TranceCluber first of all please dont put words in my mouth ..... second no i dont believe the world shoudl be one US...i think u focus on hating the americans more then seeing the bigger picture ...there VMC.... u rather have had Milosovic still in power rather then us going int here and saving the people from getting massacred down there ...if thats true wow ur views have definatly blinded u.... same with sadam......................

I think you convinced me, I shouldn't have 'defended' Saddam. As I said - IMO the man is sick. But before we use military forces, we must find some ways to eliminate the conflict without war. It's not that I'm defending terrorists or hate Americans. I HATE terrorism! I have nothing to Americans, I LIKE them! Same as you, I don't favour Palestines or Israelis, but I'm frightened of what is going on there. They kill themselves and there's no way they could talk and stop it. It goes on and on and nothing can be done, it's horrible! Ok, maybe I was too angry and put some words in your mouth... Don't bear a grudge man... No offense!

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PvD Planet

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Originally posted by tiesto14 And just an added note...the bombing on Afghanistan made that country a thousand times better then what it was...and this is NOT according to U.S. officials it is according to the citizens of Afghanistan....this week was the FIRST week of school in many years that children can go and get an education and so many other things...but this is not really about Afghanistan...but just remember the U.S. made this possible for the Afghanistan people...find 1 other country that would do that...NONE....

Your right, 100% or even more... Talibans had to be banned for hosting Osama and Al-queda terrorists, so the war was necessary... That was a good work... We're both in NATO, remember? I support you.

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And i really wish everyone would stop hating on the U.S....if its that freaken bad...tell me why so many people, more then an other country, immigrate here.,..why do so mnay why come here...why do so many risk persicution and death to get to America...more people move to the U.S. a year then from any other country in history...so give that a rest....

As for me, as I wrote in my previous post I have nothing to you Americans, you're OK! Maybe there is some criticism in my opinions, but I don't hate you ppl. We are all members of internatiomal community, no offense to each other

I'm tired of this debate... Need to relax... Let's have some trance

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PvD Planet

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Originally posted by vmc I'm tired of this debate... Need to relax... Let's have some trance

sounds good to me......

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vmc I think you convinced me, I shouldn't have 'defended' Saddam. As I said - IMO the man is sick. But before we use military forces, we must find some ways to eliminate the conflict without war. It's not that I'm defending terrorists or hate Americans. I HATE terrorism! I have nothing to Americans, I LIKE them! Same as you, I don't favour Palestines or Israelis, but I'm frightened of what is going on there. They kill themselves and there's no way they could talk and stop it. It goes on and on and nothing can be done, it's horrible! Ok, maybe I was too angry and put some words in your mouth... Don't bear a grudge man... No offense!

ur right war should be the last resort.... dipulmatic way of solving problems should always be the way to go ..but reemmber look at us ..we have such different opinions about what is the right thing to do and i guarentee we have many more similarities then differences....but even that makes us not have a common ground on things just on this board ..shows how hard it really is to have a common ground to solve a diplomatic problem... every country doesnt like to give in so its hard sometimes to solve tensions between 2 countries diplomatic.... sometimes there isnt a way not matter how hard u try.....

then again i dont hold a grudge =) no offense taken...... this discussion has no right or wrong answer just different point of views..so let the music speak for us ...and lets forget about this thread cuz we dont need tension in this board ..we should all have a common ground on this board which is music ..so its argue about that lol!!

arrgh! don't have time to read all this!

Not until we establish CONCRETELY that Saddam has/is in the process of obtaining weapons of mass destruction.

If so I think the whole unilateralism issue would be moot as the rest of the world (at least NATO countries) would realize that Saddam MUST be disposed immediately