|
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that kind of rhetoric is only going to get more civilians (on both sides) killed.
|
No, I'm not proposing violence is the solution. I'll get into what I mean a little later in this post.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
israel is recognised by an overwhelming number of nations around the world. like it or not, most foreign governments recognise israel's right to exist. thats never going to change. |
So submission to power and accepting an unjust scenario somehow justifies it? 
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
how far back should we take ? |
As far back as is relevant . The past gazillion years are not. That's nothing more than a copout and refusal take resbonsibily and act ethicaly.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
because if you trace the evolution of nations back far enough, someone was always getting displaced by someone else. more often than not theres a whole lot of bloodshed. should current australians or americans give back all the land to the descendants of the respective indigenous populations? i certainly dont think so. |
Well, if the vast majority of them weren't wiped off the face of the earth, then they might have been able to demand some type of reparations . Let's assume that they were'nt eliminated and this scenario could actually be reality. In that case, the only reason why current Americans/Australians are here (i.e. in America/Australia), is because they inherited the land their forefathers illegitimately conquered and occupied. The implication of that is the following generations have atleast some level of responsibility to ensure the displaced people no longer have to continue to suffer from the injustices and their consequences imposed on them centuries ago. The fact of the matter is that current generations continue to reap the benefits of past injustices. Now since the current generation isn't responsible for something they didn't participare in doesn't change the fact that they continue to reap it's benefits. The reason for this is the fact that the indigenous population are still displaced and experiencing negative consequences the direct resulted from it. Now they can't undo they past, but they can make reperations for it. So they DO have a collective moral responsibilty to accommodate the indigenous population and make sure that they don't continue to feel the after effects of the past. And that doesn't mean they have to pack up their shit and leave, cuz that would be a somewhat similar situation to cause of the problem in the first place. If you ever considered the moral implications such a scenario and the consequent course of action to take, perhaps you would have arrived to a some similar conclusion.
If you (generic you here) find that too inconveneint, you really have no say in a just solution to the problem.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
tell me, after 60 odd years of struggle, how much closer are the palestinian people to achieving a) a state of their own or b) the "destruction" (whatever that means) of israel?
at the moment a) will never happen without hamas, and hamas are marginalised if their attitude to israel doesnt change.
as for b) i mean seriously . youre throwing more and more civilians & militiamen against a modernised military with a draft. guerilla war has only ever been really successful at defeating a foreign power outside their own borders. israel is an established state, youre only guaranteeing perpetual war and more death & destruction.
|
Well what the hell do you expect given their situation and the history of the conflict? NOTE: That doesn't mean I think their means are morally justifiable.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the israeli state is bigger in geogrpahical size today than it was at creation because people were unwilling to "accept it". |
No, it's the result of aggresive militaristic domination, expansion, and occupation supported by the West (UK, France, US) and a premeditated plan to carry it out, which is still continues to this day due to US support. Without the aid of the West to implement their agenda, they never could have done it in the first place and this situation wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be so much deep seeded hatred on eigther side.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the alternative to accepting it is merely more of the same bloody violence that have filled the last decades. no one's goals are any closer to fruition. why do you think more struggle is going to achieve more in the next 60 years? is struggle always worth it, even when the struggle is "right"?
it just means more death. |
I'm just as interested in seeing an end to this as you are, but there won't be an end until justice prevails, and that can't happen with a neglect of ethics, morality, and responsibility. Power needs to be excercised responsibly and ethicaly for a just peace.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
cowardly submission to power you say? defeatist pacifist bullshit? how many states would you categorise as being created "legitimately"? off the top of my head i cant think of too many. how many states do you think would be exempt from your category "consiously premeditated brutal plan[s] of theft and domination"? |
I already addressed that earlier.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the answer to the israel question will be solved by a palestinian state who will use diplomacy instead of violence. israel will only stop the violence when it does not feel/is not threatened |
You're truly naive and delusional if you actually believe that. History and their own ideological literature have demonstrated the exact opposite. I've quoted several prominent and "respeceted" Zionists of the past demonstrating this. I don't feel the need to do it again, since you obviously ignored it before and I don't see why you wouldn't again.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
. as long as you have a very powerful organisation sitting on your doorstep that is dedicated to your destruction you will commit savage acts (sometimes thoroughly legitimately) and beget even more violence. |
That a more appropriate decription of the IDF and Israeli Government. Hamas is an ant in comparison to a state and military that recieved billions of dollars of aid annualy, far superior state of the art military technology, and political support from the sole super power in the world.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
feel free to throw around your "fight the power" mentality. |
So sticking to elemtary morality, sticking to your principles, and looking for a just solution is a "fight the power" mentality? Well considering how often those in power are completely morally bankrupt, I guess it is majority of the time. In that case, I'd rather ascribe to that philosophy than submit to the power structure and be as unprincipled as them.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well, a gradual annihilation is all you'll see until there is peace. and peace wont come without all parties recognising israel, wrongly or rightly. thats the reality. forget how "right" the entire cause is, if youre not winning, why lose even more just because youre on the morally superior team? |
I recognize that the state of Israel exists. Unlike alot of Arabs I know/have met, I refer to it as Israel, not Palestine. The reason for that is the fact that it's there and that what it is called. That doesn't mean I believe it's legitimacy is unquestionable or it's creation, continued expansion, and policies are morally justifiable.
To say that you must accept it's "right" to exist implies entitlement, and I don't see how one can be entitled to something forcibly taken through aggression/terrorism, violence, displacement, persecution, collective punishment, and dehumanization. That's a higly pretentious demand to make of anyone.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
who the fuck knows what an elected palestinian government of a palestinian state could achieve in negotiations with israel?? its never been tried before. it certainly couldnt achieve any less than the struggle against israel has.
whatever. im supporting something that at least has hope for change, rather than some ideologically romantic notion of fighting against the world's injustices whilst ignoring the fact that this fight is only causing more of those injustices. |
No you're not, you're supporting something that is guaranteed to fail and not result in a just or lasting peace. A large number of Israelis are good people and don't approve of all this sensless violence and injustice, as well as a large number of Palestinians. They're sick of decades of violence and insecurity, and just want to be able to live in peace. So I don't believe mutual respect and peaceful co-existance is impossible, but it certainly won't come about without a willingness to work together. Those in power have clearly demonstrated that they don't want that. Unilateral US support for Israel is a far cry from a "nuetral" stance of a third party interested in promoting a peaceful solution. The only thing that guarantees is a disproportionately more powerful and ever expanding Israel (and maintaining this status quo), and ofcourse the expected consequent reaction.
___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller
|
. 
