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Originally posted by Sunsnail meh.. I'd rather use a chinaman's organs than die

Would you still, if you came to know that he was inhumanly killed just for the sake of the organs ?

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Download and review ! Omega_M - In the Mix (Beta Version)

Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

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Originally posted by Omega_M Would you still, if you came to know that he was inhumanly killed just for the sake of the organs ?

If I was certain that I wouldn't be able to get organs elsewhere... then probably. Kind of a hard decision to make... Be moral or die. hm.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby Actually, he didn't "choose" death, I'm almost certain that it was given to him by another party. It's cute of you to label it that though in order to make yourself sleep better about the situation.

Ok so i may have phrased that one badly. What i mean was that at some point in his life he had a choice to make and he chose the one which could end with a death sentance. He could wery well have chosen the other option and deal with the consequences of that one but he didnt. Therefore he accepted death as a possible consequnce. What crime that person commited to get stuck with a death sentance is another matter altogether but again it doesnt really matter.

And its not that i label it like that to make myself feel better but rather that i belive in free will and that there are always at least two options, each of which caries its own set of pros and cons and that its up to us to carefuly weigh those pros and cons and decide upon the best option for the current situation. And if one choses wrong...well thats what the police, judges and lawas are for.

I would love ot explan my point in more detail as i have a feeling that im writing nonsense but ive been up for roughly 50 hours at the moemnt, im exausted im drunk and even though im actualy lying in bed under a warm blanket with my head on my nice orthopedic pillow (since i dont pray to any deity i send my thanks to the geek that invented a laptop computer) my insomnia is preventing me from falling asleep. Im in no state of mine for any meaningful discussion...so im off to visit the COR

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Originally posted by Sunsnail Well, organ harvesting can't be pretty. I'd still rather live

So would the poor guy who got shot in the head so you could have one.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z So would the poor guy who got shot in the head so you could have one.

Did he get shot so I could have a liver or because he violated the law?

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Originally posted by Sunsnail Did he get shot so I could have a liver or because he violated the law?

The former.

EDIT: Did you miss this part?

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IV. China's Record on Wrongful Convictions ..... We discovered serious problems with regard to ninety-three of the cases, amounting to 94.3 percent of the total. Among these, sixty-seven of the convicted persons, or 68.36 percent of all the cases reviewed, were in fact completely innocent. Two persons, or 2.05 percent of the total, should have been exempted from criminal punishment. In twenty-one cases, or 21.4 percent of the total, either the wrong charges had been applied or the sentences imposed were too heavy. And in a further three cases, or 3.06 percent of the total, either the facts were unclear or the evidence was insufficient.(47)... .....

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Moongoose Therefore he accepted death as a possible consequnce.

There are many ways to exist, which is the way evolution and the universe have set the situation up, in order to provide the possibility of survival.

But ... you do realize that we all have to accept death as THE only consequence, right?

It's a matter of when and how, and to what standards we hold each other, our families, and our friends, in that struggle.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z The former.

oh. teehee

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Originally posted by Sunsnail I thought that the organs were shipped over to the US. I would have the operation in the USA. The article says that the prisoners are executed by gunshot to the head. Short and long-term effects would probably be the same as any other organ transplant.

Why not stem-cell grow organs in the lab from the body you've got? They're guaranteed to work for you (for a time), and you aren't funding a foreign government. Not that funding foreign governments is necessarily wrong, but in this case it seems extreme.

I wonder where the line between the "black market" and the "government" blurs in china to the US regarding organ resale, just the same way as drug "black market" and "government/clan" mentality regard the drug trade between colombia and the US.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby Why not stem-cell grow organs in the lab from the body you've got? They're guaranteed to work for you (for a time), and you aren't funding a foreign government. Not that funding foreign governments is necessarily wrong, but in this case it seems extreme.

Stem-cell organs would rock Wonder why we aren't researching that? oh yea...

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby It's a matter of when and how, and to what standards we hold each other, our families, and our friends, in that struggle.

Having had a kidney transplant in june and being on the waiting list too long to tell I can speak from personal experience.

This pseudo political correctness some of us try to abid by is very easy to forget when you are personally affected.
The practice of organ harvesting in the way it is done in China with the execution of detainees is plain wrong.
But taking into account having to wait for years for a transplant, being on dialysis all that time and the alternative option of paying 100k $ or whatever the cost to get you out of that hell hole much more quickly makes it very easy to forget ones own morals.

I will admit I actually looked into the possibility of getting a transplant in countries like Pakistan or India and my only issue was the cost . These two countries actually seem to do it in a more "fair" way as they use live organ donors which are financially compensated.

Feel free to go into a rage about what I am saying but having to wait for a transplant with the feeling your life is on pause is certainly not a way to live.

Lastly the paradox and pettiness of the situation is placed on both sides.
Shaolin_z commented on the fact that the Western world should step up to call a halt on such practices and he is totally right.
But at the same time it is citizens of countries like the United States, Saudi Arabia etc who are the biggest consumers of these "exotic" transplantations because of transplant waiting list times being so long in their home countries ( average waiting times are around 4 years in many states in the US ).

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Originally posted by jdat Feel free to go into a rage about what I am saying but having to wait for a transplant with the feeling your life is on pause is certainly not a way to live.

Good post...

I wasn't raging, nor will I. o.O Did I give the impression that I was raging?