quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja it might not be perceptivly weaker.

Correct.

It's all about tailoring the illusion of the sound to the perception of the listener.

Depending on the track and the instrument, you may use EQ and/or sidechaining, or neither.

In this case, it sounds like the guy needs to EQ his pad or his lead, though, to make both fit tightly together, since he basically let us know that his track elements were conflicting.

Erm I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't ever use subtractive EQ because I think it makes sounds weaker, infact it's the number one tool I use in production.

quote:

Having tried this on a bass and kick combination, I agree with Diginut. It's better to just EQ out the conflicts while trying to maintain the fuller sound. As Diginut said, mixing is a compromise, and this abuse of sidechaining is a cop-out.

You tried sidechaining a Kick/Bass once, couldn't get it right, and now you consider sidechaining a cop-out? Cool. Was there even a bass note hitting with the kick? I've seen people try to put a sidechain on an OFFBEAT bass because the kick had a long tail, and then wonder why it doesn't sound right..

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EQ isn't used in a vacuum, it's done along with proper levels.

You might cut out certain frequencies and then raise the volume to compensate. Or not. The point is, conflicting sounds will all get buried and appear to be weak, whereas proper EQ will bring them all out and they will all sound stronger, in spite of having smaller bandwidths. Ducking, on the other hand, is simply going to bury one sound in favour of the other, which is why it's a great technique for managing reverb and other wet effects but generally a lousy technique for balancing elements of a mix.

You are right about one thing though MN: ducking is not a replacement for EQ, which is precisely why I'm saying that it shouldn't be used as one.

I guess the saying is true, a broken watch is right twice a day.

Most mixes I've heard that I would consider to be professional do not use the ducked/sidechained sound. Some do, but most not, and the vast majority of ones that do, use it to balance wet effects and not to create a pumping sound.

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I mostly listen to house / prog tho.

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quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja You tried sidechaining a Kick/Bass once, couldn't get it right, and now you consider sidechaining a cop-out? Cool. Was there even a bass note hitting with the kick? I've seen people try to put a sidechain on an OFFBEAT bass because the kick had a long tail, and then wonder why it doesn't sound right..

Fuck you, too. This was a rolling bassline. I gated the kick, too. I just couldn't hear the fucking bassline when the two hit together. Thanks for being a dickhead.

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Lmfao sory.. Try a lower theshold, with high limiting like ratio. with rolling bass u dont wnat that much ducking try around -20 -30 max.

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If one decides that EQing is the way to go, to get the pad and lead to not clash, what steps do you take to figure out how each one should then be EQed? How do you figure out what frequencies should be cut or boosted in each? I know how to give a little boost to an instrument to bring it out more, but EQing 2 instruments to get them to not clash seems trickier. Seems to me you would EQ only one of the instruments, not both, perhaps the pad.

A lot of the time my pads seem to not be as clearly heard as I want them to be, even when they aren't clashing with any of the other instruments. I've run into this lately, and it's a bit frustrating.

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quote:

Originally posted by zodiac9 If one decides that EQing is the way to go, to get the pad and lead to not clash, what steps do you take to figure out how each one should then be EQed? How do you figure out what frequencies should be cut or boosted in each? I know how to give a little boost to an instrument to bring it out more, but EQing 2 instruments to get them to not clash seems trickier. Seems to me you would EQ only one of the instruments, not both, perhaps the pad. A lot of the time my pads seem to not be as clearly heard as I want them to be, even when they aren't clashing with any of the other instruments. I've run into this lately, and it's a bit frustrating.

That's often correct - you might only need to EQ one of them. Sometimes you'll cut one, boost the other... sometimes cut both... sometimes cut both in some spots and boost both in other spots. Really it's kind of a trial-and-error process unless you've got years of experience behind you.

As for pads, you have to be careful with those; as producers we all like to hear all the sounds we put into the track, but to a listener pads are just atmosphere, background noise. They really shouldn't stand out that much, and we producers have to be careful not to fall into the trap of trying to bring out the background elements too much.

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2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut As for pads, you have to be careful with those; as producers we all like to hear all the sounds we put into the track, but to a listener pads are just atmosphere, background noise. They really shouldn't stand out that much, and we producers have to be careful not to fall into the trap of trying to bring out the background elements too much.

For this reason, I often don't even give my pads much presence in the treble range. I think pads sound better when lowpassed, anyway.

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Dynamically attenuating a specific part of a frequency has been done long time before Benny (he just took it to the extreme, which will probably sound funny in a couple of years). Deessers, that serve this function (although usually used on vocals) have been on the market for a long time and used quite extensively.
But, who says you can't attenuate a frequency of your choice on a lead. If it sounds good, it's good...
Cheers
Effero

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