quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium So are you saying that the illegally living in Russia Georgians should just continue illegally earning money, not paying taxes, breaking laws and helping organized crime and their own dictatorship at home? THEY ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE MY FAMILY THAT FOOUGHT HARD TO WIN CITIZENSHIP, PAYING A LOT OF MONEY AND PUTTING A LOT OF DEDICATION AND HARD WORK TO EARN THE RIGHT TO LEGALLY LIVE AND WORK IN THE COUNTRY (I became a Canadian citizen in 2002). These illegals think they deserve the same rights because they're breaking laws, and living easy lives compared to others who spent years trying to become citizens. Am I a hypocrite now? I went through this shit, to become a Canadian citizen is a lot of work, money and dedication. These aliens/illegals spend years not paying taxes, taking advantage of the system THAT I PAY TAXES FOR. WHERE'S THE JUSTICE???

Did you get Georgians confused with Mexicans?

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Did you get Georgians confused with Mexicans?

It's the same issue. In USA its with Mexicans, in Russia its with Georgians.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Magnetonium, you haven't been in Russia for a long time I must say.

Just take a break and read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714152

In short, it's about the process of deporation of Georgians from Russia where one of them dies in the Moscow Airport of asthma. Apparanteley because he didn't receive the medicine and proper care from Russian authorities.

Now read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714164

And explain me please, why the Russian police has linked described events with Georgian organized crime structures only few days ago ? i.e. right after Russia impossed sanctions on Georgia ? I'm ASKING what were they doing before ? Why all that shit (of course if it's true) was existing for at least 15 years (amount them, 6 years while Putin is in charge) and nobody was caring much about it ?

Russian government stinks, and Putin doesn't care about the situation inside Russia all. He is nice authoritarian leader, but that way of government definitly is not the future of Russia.

Do you know what he was trying to do in Germany last week ?
He was bullying German's PM (behind France's back) to become a sinle distributor of the natural gas in Europe, while Gazprom becomes its single supplier.

Shitty moves. And all the campaign towards Georgia is Russian FASCISM.

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Wow, I didn't even mention aliens or Putin at all. I just said that based on your comments that you were a hypocrite. You know, this thread) and your statements all over this forum about the US. The aliens must have abductd me, probed my undeveloped thoughts and handed them over to you for you to have inferred even close to what you did about my opinions on Russia, which are few and far between. I honestly don't know that much about what's going on there because to be honest, I don't really care until issues start arising that affect me. There are far too many other things, being an American that half the world hates because of our leaders stupid decisions, that affect me in this world than part of some country that hasn't been a threat to us in at least 15 years.

That is exactly the root of all your (Americans) problems.
You don't care about the others until they become a threat to you. That's why as you said, half of the world hates US.

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveller That is exactly the root of all your (Americans) problems. You don't care about the others until they become a threat to you. That's why as you said, half of the world hates US.

No, that's not it at all. 10 years ago, that was not my opinion and I was a lot more broadly versed in what was going on. But when you've got increased threats in certain areas, you tend to focus on those first.

It must be nice to live in a country where you can still do that because you're not a primary target because of your size, wealth, and stupid foreign policy of your government.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Putin actually publicly condemned the journalist's murder.

Hah! It is true he did, a few days after it happend, in fucking Germany! Any president with any self respect whatsoever would have condemned her assasination instantly with a lot stronger words than his!

quote:

Even the Chechen people in 2002 referendum called for remaining within Russia.

Yeah thats right, the election wasn't criticised at all for being unfair! Or maybe that was just another part of western conspiracy against the Russians!

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveller Magnetonium, you haven't been in Russia for a long time I must say. Just take a break and read this article: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714152 In short, it's about the process of deporation of Georgians from Russia where one of them dies in the Moscow Airport of asthma. Apparanteley because he didn't receive the medicine and proper care from Russian authorities. Now read this article: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714164 And explain me please, why the Russian police has linked described events with Georgian organized crime structures only few days ago ? i.e. right after Russia impossed sanctions on Georgia ? I'm ASKING what were they doing before ? Why all that shit (of course if it's true) was existing for at least 15 years (amount them, 6 years while Putin is in charge) and nobody was caring much about it ? Russian government stinks, and Putin doesn't care about the situation inside Russia all. He is nice authoritarian leader, but that way of government definitly is not the future of Russia. Do you know what he was trying to do in Germany last week ? He was bullying German's PM (behind France's back) to become a sinle distributor of the natural gas in Europe, while Gazprom becomes its single supplier. Shitty moves. And all the campaign towards Georgia is Russian FASCISM.

I read the articles. Its surely suspicious how ALLEGEDLY some Georgians with Russian citizenships have been deported. Though they didnt say anything at the airport, and there were plenty of illegals on that plane too. Surely the Russian government is not doing the smartest thing, but I strongly believe they should clamp down on illegals, though they're not doing much. There are still millions of illegal aliens in that country, with a loss of billions of dollars to the country every year - in lost taxes, in these aliens using the same privileges and discounts like public transit, hospitals, education, etc. that average Russians pay for in taxes every year. These illegals are not conformed by the system, they can break laws and regulations, they feel like they can almost do anything. Yeah, while you're in the country, enjoy Russia as much as you can at whatever the expense to a law-abiding citizen!

As much as you'd like to ignore this, but Russia is much more democratic than most if not all Asian, African, South American countries. They have many internal problems, and when a country has problems there are usually such factors as corruption and bureaucracy. In the West we have stable government system, which is yet to develop in Russia and it takes a while because it doesnt happen overnight, the economy is still reeling in from the brutal 90s, and all the communist shit is still left ... Soviet Union only collapsed 15 years ago, and the political and economical system is still reorganizing, it takes a long time, my friend. You just cant expect Russia to be stable, democratic, prosperous overnight. It takes years, decades ... and judging by most statistics, Russia is way better off today than it was 15, 10, 5 years ago.

An excellent recent example how Russia is moving towards democracy and not vice versa as you're suggesting to is on Jan1 Putin has passed regional rule to the regions respectively. The regions have the say on their issues. Taxes, military and laws are still centralized, but the regions can now decide and choose what they want to do, they have their own tax cut and budget, their own parliament system, own police and other factors. Look it up, you must've missed it. In 1930s, Hitler was doing quite the opposite.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Hah! It is true he did, a few days after it happend, in fucking Germany! Any president with any self respect whatsoever would have condemned her assasination instantly with a lot stronger words than his! Yeah thats right, the election wasn't criticised at all for being unfair! Or maybe that was just another part of western conspiracy against the Russians!

Its kinda funny, but everytime there's an election where a non-western leader wins, the West claims the elections were rigged. But then when elections are called in favour of pro-western leader, then the elections were fair.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Its kinda funny, but everytime there's an election where a non-western leader wins, the West claims the elections were rigged. But then when elections are called in favour of pro-western leader, then the elections were fair.

I can agree that the west tend to make a lot more fuss about elections that are unfair to a pro-western candidate than vice versa, but ffs, you know the Chechen election wasn't fair or just (even though the results might have been the same under a fair election)!

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew I can agree that the west tend to make a lot more fuss about elections that are unfair to a pro-western candidate than vice versa, but ffs, you know the Chechen election wasn't fair or just (even though the results might have been the same under a fair election)!

You know why it was fair? Because what happened in Chechnya after Russians withdrew in 1996 was terrible. Chechen warlords established wahhabism and martial law in their defacto independent republic. Many murders have happened then - the republic became home to drug, sex slave, prostitute trade. Human trafficking was big there, and Russian mafia happily sapped in the market. Then the Chechen warlords grew bold at Russian tolerance of the situation, and they attempted to invade Dagestan to expand their radicalism and unite with the wahhabists in Dagestan. And thats how the second war started, in addition to the apartment bombing in mainland Russia.

Last year I think there were elections in Azerbaijan. Elections violations were widely reported, though they were silenced by the western media because pro-Western leader won who finished the oil pipeline from Baku to south Turkey. The re-elected leader actually clamped down on opposition and forbid them to protest, only on specific days ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Other former Soviet block recent elections: In Turkmenistan, their leader was elected to LIFETIME rule in the country. Since USA has military bases and gas from the country, it receives no criticism, even though racism, crime and media-control is wide in Turkmenistan. Their leader is so fucked up, he is called GOD and everyone has to know his book describing how beautiful their country is, how their leader is the greatest, and all the achievements made by him, bla bla bla bla ... AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW IT, OR YOU GET IMPRISONED. You NEED TO KNOW THE BOOK to pass the school. Agh, and you though North Korea was evil. See Wikipedia:

"Turkmenistan is also under the rule of one of the world's most autocratic and repressive dictatorships."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan

Read in detail over here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Turkmenistan

Yeah, where's the US and European criticism of that shithole???

On December 28, 1999, Niyazov's term was extended indefinitely by the Mejlis (parliament), which itself had taken office only a week earlier in elections that included only candidates hand-picked by President Niyazov; no opposition candidates were allowed. President for Life Saparmurat Niyazov, a former bureaucrat of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, has ruled Turkmenistan since 1985, when he became head of the Communist Party of the Turkmen SSR. He retains absolute control over the country and opposition is not tolerated. The president's party, the Democratic Party of Turkmenistan, is the only one legally permitted. Political gatherings are illegal unless government sanctioned. All citizens are required to carry internal passports, noting place of residence, and movement into and out of the country, as well as within its borders, is difficult. Turkmenistan is dominated by a pervasive cult of personality extolling President Niyazov as Turkmenbashi ("Leader of all Turkmen"). His face adorns many everyday objects, from banknotes to bottles of vodka. The logo of Turkmen national television is his profile. The two books he has written are mandatory readings in schools and public servants are quizzed yearly about their knowledge of its contents. It's also common in shops and homes. Many institutions are named after his mother. All watches and clocks made must bear his portrait printed on the dial-face. A giant 15-meter (50 feet) tall gold-plated statue of him stands on a rotating pedestal in Ashgabat, so it will always face into the sun and shine light onto the city. President Niyazov has recently proclaimed that anyone who reads his book Ruhnama three times will "become more intelligent, will recognise the divine being and will go straight to heaven"[1].

A slogan popular in Turkmen propaganda is "Halk! Watan! Türkmenbashi!" meaning "People! Motherland! Leader!". Niyazov renamed the days of the week after members of his family and wrote the new Turkmen national anthem/oath himself.

Foreign companies seeking to exploit Turkmenistan's vast natural gas resources have cooperated with Niyazov since he also controls access to the natural resources. His book Ruhnama (or Rukhnama), which is expected to be revered in Turkmenistan almost like a holy text, has been translated into 32 languages and distributed for free among major international libraries[2].

While the constitution provides for freedom of the press, the government has full control of all media. Only two newspapers, Adalat and Galkynysh, are nominally independent, but they were created by presidential decree. Cable TV, which had existed in the late 1980s, was shut down.

Activities of all but the officially recognized Russian Orthodox and Sunni Muslim faiths are severely limited. Religious congregations are required to register with the government, and individual parishes must have at least 500 members to register. Severe measures are directed toward religious sects that have not been able to establish official ties of state recognition, especially Baptists, Pentecostalists, Seventh-day Adventists, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Bahá'ís. Practitioners of these sects have allegedly been harassed, imprisoned, and/or tortured, according to some outside human rights advocacy groups.

Corruption continues to be pervasive. Power is concentrated in the president; the judiciary is wholly subservient to the regime, with all judges appointed for 5-year terms by the president without legislative review. Little has been done to prosecute corrupt officials.

Turkmenistan refuses to join any international organization, because of its "status of permanent neutrality," which was accepted by the UN General Assembly on December 12, 1995.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You know why it was fair? Because what happened in Chechnya after Russians withdrew in 1996 was terrible. Chechen warlords established wahhabism and martial law in their defacto independent republic. Many murders have happened then - the republic became home to drug, sex slave, prostitute trade. Human trafficking was big there, and Russian mafia happily sapped in the market. Then the Chechen warlords grew bold at Russian tolerance of the situation, and they attempted to invade Dagestan to expand their radicalism and unite with the wahhabists in Dagestan. And thats how the second war started, in addition to the apartment bombing in mainland Russia.

Exactly how does that make the elections fair?

I'm not ignoring the fact that Russia is emerging at the moment and it will take time to get things done in a proper way, but honestly I don't believe that it would be able to reach the same level of life as in Europe or in the North America at all.

The Russians are very different from other nations. It might seem as a platitude but their mentality tends to taint everything their do. Most of the Russians are very frail, apathetic and they boast with that. I find it very confusing and difficult to understand, because in fact the nation itself is very smart and pragmatic.

Delving into the history, I found 2 main types of Russian character. People of first one (typical example Peter the Great) are able to see the pros and the cons of the situation inside the country and they are trying to mend it. They are traveling abroad, studying and trying to apply the foreign knowledge and way of life when coming back to home. Conversely, the second group of people resists to all the attempts to change it as hard as they can, do you know how ? simply BY DOING NOTHING. It's a fucking paradox. They are so reluctant to adopt a knowledge taken from somewhere else. They think they are doing thing the best way ever possible and there is no need to change it all.

I think that exactly what is happening in the government right now. From my opinion Putin is trying to influence the whole system and change a view of people working with him. But most of them are too dense and reluctant to any changes because they get used to the current way of things. Like when you always have an option to bribe someone to get something done quickly.

Of course it's quite simplified explanation, but if you are interested, try to read Peter I, and Anna Karenina by Alexey Tolstoy. Notice how he describes the events when somebody tries to apply gained knowledge to the Russian reality. I found it's very pitiful.

And coming back to the resent events, I don't think that illegal immigrants is the main problem of Russia today. Of course all what you've said is true, and every native Russian associates a word criminal with Georgian citizen. But again the current government must clamp down the corruption first instead expelling bunch of innocent gapes. I'm saying innocent because it's always like that in Russia, when something bad happens the people who punishmened haven't done anything wrong atl all.