quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r That may be true, but it's the ones that want to bring their country with them and expect the host country to comply simply because they think they should that are the problem. No one's mentioned anything about giving up their culture however, respecting your new country by abiding by a few laws isn't much to ask either.

As far as I am aware, bringing their host country with them is not against the law. Neither is having values, beliefs, or ideologies associated with a particular group of people. Furthermore, assuming anyone outright to be on the level of a law-breaker just because they have those values, beliefs, or ideologies is another thing all together and wrong.

I'm not against Blairs speech and I think it is important for everyone to assimilate. I was discontented when the demonstrations in the U.S. for immigration carried Mexican flags. If you like Mexico then live in Mexico but when you're on American soil you're going to carry an American flag. However someone carrying a Mexican flag is not a criminal (unless they're an illegal alien but I digress).

If Muslims are to assimilate into Western culture they must accept Western values such as tolerance, equality of women, adoption of the main language etc. Though to expect that of them while not sharing the same values towards them is hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, does not apply here.

I think what this speech really intended to do was to show that the old idea of multiculturalism and leaving these groups to their own devices does not work. I mean having small Muslim societies inside the main society does not work. They need to become integrated with the main society and become apart of the main hub of common living rather than a separate branch.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby I'm not touching on whether you're right or wrong, but I was just wondering if you recognized that you utilize dehumanization in your methods of processing and filtering the information you receive about people you've been told are your "enemies". IE: calling them animals, as if we don't display the exact same traits, just in different mediums. Similar to how the "ancient" Romans justified the slaughter of foreigners who were not yet Romanized by equating them to Barbarians, yet us living today can look back at many old Roman traditions and rituals that we could comparatively consider barbaric.

believe it or not i am a "thinking" man, if by that post admittedly does portray me as something less. i don't want to get in the moral relative weeds here for the sake of one word. i do, however, believe ours is the moral high ground from where the "struggle" or "jihad" can't easily reach no matter where ones morals are relatively here in the Western world. animals was a metaphor for something less than what reasonable, peaceful people struggle for.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r That may be true, but it's the ones that want to bring their country with them and expect the host country to comply simply because they think they should that are the problem. No one's mentioned anything about giving up their culture however,

I'd argue that alot of Muslims growing up in the west aren't any different from any other minority, in the sense that they've conformed to contemporary culture. Alot of them haven't aswell, but I fail to see why that's some "huge problem."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r respecting your new country by abiding by a few laws isn't much to ask either.

Yeah, like 99% of them are criminals.

Again:



Stop being so paranoid about the bullshit impression created in your head by images propagated in the mass media. I mean seriously, WTF. It's the oldest fucking trick in the book to (deliberately) present a group in a bad light/encourage apathy for obvious reasons . It's happened to virtually every minority, we're just the last. What's so surprising about that? I'll tell you what, the fact that (many) people still keep falling for it.

"Beh! Beh! Beh!"

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 As far as I am aware, bringing their host country with them is not against the law. Neither is having values, beliefs, or ideologies associated with a particular group of people. Furthermore, assuming anyone outright to be on the level of a law-breaker just because they have those values, beliefs, or ideologies is another thing all together and wrong. I'm not against Blairs speech and I think it is important for everyone to assimilate. I was discontented when the demonstrations in the U.S. for immigration carried Mexican flags. If you like Mexico then live in Mexico but when you're on American soil you're going to carry an American flag. However someone carrying a Mexican flag is not a criminal (unless they're an illegal alien but I digress). If Muslims are to assimilate into Western culture they must accept Western values such as tolerance, equality of women, adoption of the main language etc. Though to expect that of them while not sharing the same values towards them is hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, does not apply here. I think what this speech really intended to do was to show that the old idea of multiculturalism and leaving these groups to their own devices does not work. I mean having small Muslim societies inside the main society does not work. They need to become integrated with the main society and become apart of the main hub of common living rather than a separate branch.

Well, you haven't really said anything I haven't already said, so why quote me?
Were you just agreeing then?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'd argue that alot of Muslims growing up in the west aren't any different from any other minority, in the sense that they've conformed to contemporary culture. Alot of them haven't aswell, but I fail to see why that's some "huge problem." Yeah, like 99% of them are criminals. Again: Stop being so paranoid about the bullshit impression created in your head by images propagated in the mass media. I mean seriously, WTF. It's the oldest fucking trick in the book to (deliberately) present a group in a bad light/encourage apathy for obvious reasons . It's happened to virtually every minority, we're just the last. What's so surprising about that? I'll tell you what, the fact that (many) people still keep falling for it. "Beh! Beh! Beh!"

I really don't know what you're going on about...you're reading waaay to much into my post.

I'm specifically referring to those dolts that think they can bring Shira Law into the Western world and figure we'd be just fine with that...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I really don't know what you're going on about...you're reading waaay to much into my post.

Nah, I think you project too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm specifically referring to those dolts that think they can bring Shira Law into the Western world and figure we'd be just fine with that...

You honestly think they have any ability to do that or it would ever happen?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Nah, I think you project too much.

Sorry, I normally don't try and post with a read-between-the-lines in mind.
Leads to too much ASS-umption and backpedaling I find.

quote:

You honestly think they have any ability to do that or it would ever happen?

I would hope not lol

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well, you haven't really said anything I haven't already said, so why quote me? Were you just agreeing then?

I accept your concession.