Yes it was too long, learn to hyperlink to articles noob

quote:

Yes it does. Read up on Zionisist ideology and how a core characteristic of it is to maintain a Jewish majority. That's impossible without displacing or killing off the indigenous population, especially considering that Arabs (including the ones in Israel) have a higher birthrate than their non-indigenous counterpart. The systematic removal of the indigenous people, destruction of their homes and infrastructre, illegal expansion, and military expansion are exactly that. And here's a zillion quotes by Zionists, including Herzl, the father of zionism, making their agenda for 'ethnic cleansing' (I hate that euphemism) pretty clear even before the state of Israel was created, to replace the indigenous Arab population with Jewish immigrants. The fact that if you're Jewish you pretty much get automatic citizenship is racist enough.

I dont know about that, if youre a resident in most countries with family or ethnic ties you fairly much walk in off the plane, get your visa and start the process of naturalisation and citizenship.
"Indigenous", thats kind of a misnomer really as they do have a fair amount of cultural and historical ties to the area, given a lot came from there you could even map the root genetic history down to about a 5% difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli. Given that theres only a 10% root genetic difference between an American and an African, we're not so much different after all.

I dont think I even want to start on the jewish history of oppression over the last 1500years either, the pogroms, genocide and displacement is fairly well documented because it often had the government backing at the time.

All I'm saying is that theyre better of sticking the guns away for a bit, stop pissing the Israeli's off for lack of a better description because all that does is get people killed. Instead of spending the money on guns, rockets and ammunition, start channelling it into a legal recourses like real estate, forming corporations, legitimate business and just slaughter them on the domestic markets, move in next door as neighbours.
If
And I really mean IF, the Israeli's sanction that kind of foreign investment you can really call it all the names you want.

That way, you drag yourselves out of poverty, dont have your children killed by soldiers, airstrikes and send off another generation of men and women into something which hasnt so far been solved by picking up a gun in the last 6 decandes. Sure, stay angry, stay hungry but theres always an alternative if youre willing to put aside the thuggery thats going on there right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Yes it was too long, learn to hyperlink to articles noob I dont know about that, if youre a resident in most countries with family or ethnic ties you fairly much walk in off the plane, get your visa and start the process of naturalisation and citizenship.

That's too bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith "Indigenous", thats kind of a misnomer really as they do have a fair amount of cultural and historical ties to the area

No it isn't. With the exception of Orthodox Jews, there's hardly anything culturally Middle Eastern about most Jews. They're more European that anything else, except some of them know Hebrew (alot more if they live in Israel ofcourse). Most of my Jewish friends don't know any. A good friend of my brother (who's Jewish and from Russia) says my brothe's Hebrew pronunciation was much better than his. And alot Ashkhenazi Jews aren't even semetic, they're Europeans who 'converted' to Judaism a long time ago. Most Jews that DO have 'cultural and historical ties' to the area were already living there, in peace, with their Muslim & Christian counterparts.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith given a lot came from there you could even map the root genetic history down to about a 5% difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli. Given that theres only a 10% root genetic difference between an American and an African, we're not so much different after all.

What does that have to do with anything?

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith I dont think I even want to start on the jewish history of oppression over the last 1500years either, the pogroms, genocide and displacement is fairly well documented because it often had the government backing at the time.

So that somehow justifies it? Don't answer that, I know it does for alot (but not all) Westerners due to guilt over the holocaust. Which is why alot of them can't think rationaly when it comes to this issue, or apply a single standard.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith All I'm saying is that theyre better of sticking the guns away for a bit, stop pissing the Israeli's off for lack of a better description because all that does is get people killed.

A lack of a better description is reflection of reality. If they're so "pissed off" about it, perhaps they should consider abondoning that practice? Also, if it weren't for Zionism that wouldn't be the case. If you're not informed, that's not my fault. They're dealing with the mess 'they' (a small Zionist elite) created in the first place, now both Arabs and Jews are unnecessarily suffering for it. And it's not like 'they' didn't know what they were doing and the predicatable consequences of it were and still are (since the policy of illegal expansion is still in effect). And being Jewish is not the same as being a Zionist. Zionism actually violates the teaching in the Torah, I bet you weren't familiar with that eigther. And it's not only Torah follwing Jews who're against Zionism, it includes alot of secular Jews too. They're both a small minority, ridiculed and derided, even labelled "anti-semetic" on many occasions .

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Instead of spending the money on guns, rockets and ammunition, start channelling it into a legal recourses like real estate, forming corporations, legitimate business and just slaughter them on the domestic markets, move in next door as neighbours. If And I really mean IF, the Israeli's sanction that kind of foreign investment you can really call it all the names you want. That way, you drag yourselves out of poverty, dont have your children killed by soldiers, airstrikes and send off another generation of men and women into something which hasnt so far been solved by picking up a gun in the last 6 decandes. Sure, stay angry, stay hungry but theres always an alternative if youre willing to put aside the thuggery thats going on there right now.

That's easy for you or me to say, we don't live under those conditions. Since terrorism (and agression) is completey forbidden in Islam, I can't ever condone or support it. But that doesn't mean I think they don't have a right to resist and fight back, like any other occupied and displaced people.

Plus, unilateral US financial, political, and military support doesn't help eigther.

Given the way things have historicaly been since the creation of the state of Israel, the only way this is going to end is when one side completely eleminates/defeats the other or submits. Ofcourse there's a much better solution. That would involve people more interested in peace than domination/revenge, on both sides, empowering themselves enough by taking power away from the leaders who's interest are contrary to peace and justice in the region. Another thing that would help is to stop blaming the vitims for the situation (i.e. Palestinians). Palestinians didn't invade and occupy Palestine.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out� because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me� and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niem�ller

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith All I'm saying is that theyre better of sticking the guns away for a bit, stop pissing the Israeli's off for lack of a better description because all that does is get people killed. Instead of spending the money on guns, rockets and ammunition, start channelling it into a legal recourses like real estate, forming corporations, legitimate business and just slaughter them on the domestic markets, move in next door as neighbours.

exactly.

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PKC, I cheated and read your post here . That would be great, but how exactly do they do that? Do you realize how naive a suggesion that is? (Don't worry, I'll cheat some more to read the rest of your responses to me in this thread )

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out� because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me� and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niem�ller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z PKC, I cheated and read your post here . That would be great, but how exactly do they do that? Do you realize how naive a suggesion that is? (Don't worry, I'll cheat some more to read the rest of your responses to me in this thread )

i really dont know man. obviously israel's incursions into palestinian land would have to cease. the first step would be to negotiatite a lasting ceasefire and peace agreement. long enough so that both sides could remove themselves from this tit for tat mentality they've been stuck in for decades.

all i know is that palestinian struggle has cost them (at the very least) plenty of land.

at the end of the day its just fucked up and might continue to be fucked up for the rest of time

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i really dont know man. obviously israel's incursions into palestinian land would have to cease. the first step would be to negotiatite a lasting ceasefire and peace agreement. long enough so that both sides could remove themselves from this tit for tat mentality they've been stuck in for decades. all i know is that palestinian struggle has cost them (at the very least) plenty of land. at the end of the day its just fucked up and might continue to be fucked up for the rest of time

Unfortunately, I think that's how it's going to end. The complete elimination/displacement of the Palestinian people. It's just sad that the world will put up with it and accept that in this day and age. If the process weren't incremental in nature, I still doubt a whole lot of people (other than the victims) would care . It's a real shame that weak men are in power. I suppose that reflects quite poorly on the rest of us too.

EDIT: I'm taking you off ignore. I sort of had to do it considering how much stuff I had to, the amount of stress I was under, and the lack of sleep with finals being around the corner. I still have one left, but I hope I won't have to do it again.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out� because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me� and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niem�ller

I agree some of those statements about carter I posted
are half truths but they point to a lousy presidential
term. Alot of things happened in his term and it was
his responsibility.

Cut defense spending to the extremes he did is insane.
You argue there was no need for the B-1? Are you serious?
Do you know how much we still use it today? During his
four years he was short-sighted to see it's value in the
future. Very bad idea and reinforces the notion he was
weak on national defense.

Then he went to N.Korea and came back saying 'He's an ok
guy' to clinton... They decide to give aid and crap to stop
making nukes... Then years later throws in our face that
they had kept on going and finished nukes and thanked us
for the aid... Thanks guys! Truly outstanding...

Anyway, carter is an imbecile. Even a longtime aid has resigned
from his organization accusing Carter of plagiarism and errors
in his new book. There's others even a man who said carter stole
his map of the middle east he made. These men will point out
error after error soon so stay tuned...

===========

Israel and Palestine... I don't support violence and suicide
bombings, plus purposely targeting civilians, especially women
and children. The palestinians could learn a thing or two from
Gandhi and peaceful resistance. They'd have more worldwide support
if they weren't so militant. And then SHOCK! Israel retaliates
to defend their people and the militants sit back and say 'look
they're attacking us and we didn't do anything...'

Peaceful resistance is the way to go... But they are also being
used as pawns by iran... Iran pays for extremists to stir up crap.
Do you know most Muslims think of palestinians as 2nd rate? They
don't really care much about them, never did, the hardliners are
using them to stoke hatred and violence onto Israel. Why do you think
moderate Muslim nations don't fully support Hamas's government or
even hezbollah during the war they started with Israel?

They aren't happy about syrian and iranian support, arms, and training
plus supplying their own troops to keep the peace plans stalled.
The militants drop a mortar on a house then cry foul when IDF comes...
Oh and they wonder why they have no jobs or investment in their nation...
Before Arafat started this 2nd intifada they had a bright future,
a state guaranteed, tons of investment and aid from the world.
Then he decided to turn to violence for more concessions from the
peace process and look at how they live now, poor and jobless...

Peaceful resistance is the way, not violence.

There's plenty of official timelines showing, suicide bombing
after bombing right after arafat walked out of the peace summit.
Only after dozens of jews were killed did Israel finally retaliate.
But people will dismiss that and say the bombings were in retaliation
for something Israel did, but find me proof Israel started the
killing first and you get a cookie (2nd Intifada)...

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

Last edited by DevilDogUSMC on Dec-14-2006 at 05:42

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC I agree some of those statements about carter I posted are half truths but they point to a lousy presidential term. Alot of things happened in his term and it was his responsibility. Cut defense spending to the extremes he did is insane. You argue there was no need for the B-1? Are you serious? Do you know how much we still use it today? During his four years he was short-sighted to see it's value in the future. Very bad idea and reinforces the notion he was weak on national defense. Then he went to N.Korea and came back saying 'He's an ok guy' to clinton... They decide to give aid and crap to stop making nukes... Then years later throws in our face that they had kept on going and finished nukes and thanked us for the aid... Thanks guys! Truly outstanding... Anyway, carter is an imbecile. Even a longtime aid has resigned from his organization accusing Carter of plagiarism and errors in his new book. There's others even a man who said carter stole his map of the middle east he made. These men will point out error after error soon so stay tuned... =========== Israel and Palestine... I don't support violence and suicide bombings, plus purposely targeting civilians, especially women and children. The palestinians could learn a thing or two from Gandhi and peaceful resistance. They'd have more worldwide support if they weren't so militant. And then SHOCK! Israel retaliates to defend their people and the militants sit back and say 'look they're attacking us and we didn't do anything...' Peaceful resistance is the way to go... But they are also being used as pawns by iran... Iran pays for extremists to stir up crap. Do you know most Muslims think of palestinians as 2nd rate? They don't really care much about them, never did, the hardliners are using them to stoke hatred and violence onto Israel. Why do you think moderate Muslim nations don't fully support Hamas's government or even hezbollah during the war they started with Israel? They aren't happy about syrian and iranian support, arms, and training plus supplying their own troops to keep the peace plans stalled. The militants drop a mortar on a house then cry foul when IDF comes... Oh and they wonder why they have no jobs or investment in their nation... Before Arafat started this 2nd intifada they had a bright future, a state guaranteed, tons of investment and aid from the world. Then he decided to turn to violence for more concessions from the peace process and look at how they live now, poor and jobless... Peaceful resistance is the way, not violence. There's plenty of official timelines showing, suicide bombing after bombing right after arafat walked out of the peace summit. Only after dozens of jews were killed did Israel finally retaliate. But people will dismiss that and say the bombings were in retaliation for something Israel did, but find me proof Israel started the killing first and you get a cookie (2nd Intifada)...

You know, usually i find it distasteful to directly attack other people and not their arguments, i try and make it a point to not do it. But your seriously either blind or an imbecile. You preach about peace being the way yet you are a MARINE whose livelihood depends on going onto other peoples territory's with some half-assed excuse and killing anyone who opposes you. Tell me, how is that 'peaceful resistance'. What kind of moronic hypocrisy runs rampant in your head? I mean i know you've been brainwashed and all your critical thinking has been stripped away from you, after all you are a marine, but i would think that even if your pride gets in the way of actually understanding when you are wrong you would at least shut up, but oh no, just like some damn Mormon going around at 7 in the morning a sunday preaching to others, here you stand, trying to enlighten us on how peace is the way, while you systematically try to argue that a president that was for 'peace' was weak, and how we should thank all those people that strive on killing other (aka the army) for a cause (you and the rest of your kind) deemed worthy.

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX You know, usually i find it distasteful to directly attack other people and not their arguments, i try and make it a point to not do it. But your seriously either blind or an imbecile. You preach about peace being the way yet you are a MARINE whose livelihood depends on going onto other peoples territory's with some half-assed excuse and killing anyone who opposes you. Tell me, how is that 'peaceful resistance'. What kind of moronic hypocrisy runs rampant in your head? I mean i know you've been brainwashed and all your critical thinking has been stripped away from you, after all you are a marine, but i would think that even if your pride gets in the way of actually understanding when you are wrong you would at least shut up, but oh no, just like some damn Mormon going around at 7 in the morning a sunday preaching to others, here you stand, trying to enlighten us on how peace is the way, while you systematically try to argue that a president that was for 'peace' was weak, and how we should thank all those people that strive on killing other (aka the army) for a cause (you and the rest of your kind) deemed worthy.

Wow I must have struck a nerve

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Wow I must have struck a nerve

Not really. I was in awe at your level of refusal of contradictory evidence, but it's nothing special, it's a pretty general psychological phenomena, it's just a bit rare to actually see it happen.

In regards to your 'arguments', you blatantly disregard evidence that directly contradict your claims and like a sheep just keep regurgitating the same things they've fed you for so long. It's fine to have a different point of view but you don't substantiate any of it, you just use circular logic, in your mind at least, try to prove your point.

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z What does that have to do with anything?

We all bleed red.

quote:

So that somehow justifies it? Don't answer that, I know it does for alot (but not all) Westerners due to guilt over the holocaust. Which is why alot of them can't think rationaly when it comes to this issue, or apply a single standard.

I dont have any guilt over it and youre saying I'm not allow to refer to history to find reasons for such things forming to the point where they are now?

quote:

That's easy for you or me to say, we don't live under those conditions.

Maybe for one of us.
It's in your PM box as I wont go into the details here as its not really to the point of the topic.

quote:

Since terrorism (and agression) is completey forbidden in Islam, I can't ever condone or support it. But that doesn't mean I think they don't have a right to resist and fight back, like any other occupied and displaced people.

Fighting doesnt mean picking up a gun, theres a whole heap of alternatives and some of which I suggested they can do rather than piss off the IDF and get smashed time after time.
Armed resistance doesnt work, how about a different course?

quote:

Plus, unilateral US financial, political, and military support doesn't help eigther.

Neither does Arabic states just pouring money into families when their child does a suicide bombing or giving them armaments to fight with along with all the moral encouragement they need to continue doing so.

quote:

Given the way things have historicaly been since the creation of the state of Israel, the only way this is going to end is when one side completely eleminates/defeats the other or submits.

Hardly think thats an equitable or humanitarian solution to the problem, thats just admitting defeat right now and giving up. Ignoring it as the bulldozers, bombs and bullets wipe them out and conveniently ignoring the fact they really arent gaining support from western nations by continuing the armed resistance.
It's not worked in 60years headbutting the IDF, it probably wont in another 60years work against the IDF for all the reasons you mentioned.
Force will not work, how about using brains instead of dicks for a change or is that too much of an ask, apparently it is. We have the endemic problem where young men are told by stupid old impotent men that its far better to gloriously die a martyr for the cause of freedom than it is to think their way out of the problem.

quote:

Ofcourse there's a much better solution. That would involve people more interested in peace than domination/revenge, on both sides, empowering themselves enough by taking power away from the leaders who's interest are contrary to peace and justice in the region. Another thing that would help is to stop blaming the vitims for the situation (i.e. Palestinians). Palestinians didn't invade and occupy Palestine.

From 1500s to 1920 the place was occupied by the Ottoman empire. Then there was a breif period between 1920 to 1948 where it was a British mandated territory. Palestine as a self governing nation never really existed, just the residents there while armies for the last 2000 years went running roughshod through the place under someones rule.
Being a resident there counts for something as does the desire to have self rule, I'm all for it, I just think theyre going about it completely the wrong way and I wont accept that complete and utter annihilation of them is a 'oh well its going to happen so lets just feel sad about it and blame the jews' type of thing is worthy of consideration either and much less of a solution.
Thats just a soapbox to stand on banging the drum about how bad Israel is rather than make any kind of sense to fix the problem.

From Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/schools/index.htm

AAD http://english.aad-online.org/

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My TOP Now
4 Strings - Into The Night(Purple Haze Remix)
Abel Ramos - Aquarius (Randy Katana Mix)
Nautical Imagery - Distant Dreams
Duderstadt - Muhanjala(Sean Tyas Mix)
Eric Prydz � �Proper Education(Sebastian Ingrosso Remix)
Markus Schulz - Without U (Coldharbour Mix) [Vocal Deep Pro.]
Sean Tyas - Lift

Last edited by sherifyosti on Dec-14-2006 at 10:09