quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter You are correct that "God" (in a general sense) can't be disproven using the scientific method. This is precisely because theists will always simply resort to moving the goalposts and define/re-define their "God" as being "outside of" or "transcending" whatever scientific methodology is used or proposed.

Apparently you didn't read what I said. I find it rather interesting that my post, which I fail to see as being offensive, provoced this reaction from you, since you're so obsessed with "rationalism."

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Nevermind the fact that this generally involves ascribing characteristics to "God" that no human being could justifiably claim to have an adequate frame of reference to rationally consider. I suppose that if they weren't prone to self-deception then they wouldn't be theists, so it's to be expected.

You're right, in the most strict sense (rationalism, i.e. deductive reasoning appealing soley to the intellect), it's not rational. Also, I never personally ascribed any such charactestics. I'm don't recall claiming to be a prophet anywhere in my post. Abductive reasoning (which is still considered rational btw) doesn't fall under the definition of 'rationalism' eigther. So speaking of rationality in that restricted context, morality is completely irrational too. There's no deductive line of reasoning proving the validity of a single moral or ethical principle. That makes it kind of hard to deduce any system of morality or even a set of principles. A will to exist isn't rational eigther. Neighter is experiencing any type of emotion a rational act. I guess that makes you a pretty irrational person too then.

By universal and absolute applicaton of that standard, NOTHING is rational, since all deductive proofs are based on assumptions. If you've formally studied logic, you should be well aware that no assumption has any more validity over another in a logical framework.

There a bunch of other factors relevant to this entire subject (like the functionality of the human brain etc.), but I won't get into it rightnow since I don't have the time. And even if I did, it's a rather pointless discussion for obvious reasons.

EDIT: One reason I don't enjoy arguing about this is because of the hypocrisy of (some) athiests. If everything you hold to be true must be validated via deductive reasoning, then you'd literally better abandon everything. There isn't a single predicate or theory that doesn't rely on unproven assumptions. Plus the fact that people use abductive reasoning all the time, including athiets.

(I originaly made another post, but I might as well put it here)

EDIT2: I guess if you weren't prone to "self-deception," you wouldn't have posted that.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Dec-14-2006 at 07:00

I was responding to the OP, not you shaolin.

But since you decided to interject...

quote:

You're right, in the most strict sense (rationalism, i.e. deductive reasoning), it's not rational. Also, I never personally ascribed any such charactestics. I'm don't recall claiming to be a prophet anywhere in my post. Abductive reasoning (which is still considered rational btw) doesn't fall under the definition of 'rationalism' eigther. So speaking of rationality in that restricted context, morality is completely irrational too. There's no deductive line of reasoning proving the validity of a single moral or ethical principle. That makes it kind of hard to deduce any system of morality or even a set of principles. A will to exist isn't rational eigther. Neighter is experiencing any type of emotion a rational act. I guess that makes you a pretty irrational person too then. By universal and absolute applicaton of that standard, NOTHING is rational, since all deductive proofs are based on assumptions. If you've formally studied logic, you should be well aware that no assumption has any more validity over another in a logical framework.

No. Logic is a tool for analyzing the relationships between different statements that are either true or false, it is not it's own philosophical system. A will to exist is neither rational nor irrational because it does not make any claim about the truth or fallacy of an particular statement. Experiencing emotions is even less an issue of rationality: in this case, you aren't even making an assertion of any kind, you are experiencing a biological phenomenon. A code of morality or system of ethics is as rational or irrational as the reasoning which underlies it, independent of whether or not the assumptions used to develop it are true.

Defending a belief in some entity by ascribing to that entity characteristics which make it impossible to conceive of, much less believe in, is not rational. This is because the argument being made is self-contradictory. Belief in something can't be justified by the fact that it's impossible to believe in.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I was responding to the OP, not you shaolin.

Whoops .

EDIT: I guess it's a little too late for me to take back anything I said that you may have found objectionable. I'm not fond of being dishonest eigther, especially to avoid upsetting sensitivites. I try really hard not to do that being the (relatively) sensitive prick that I am . I also personally consider that to be somewhat disrespetful in a sense, which I don't want to be towards you eigther. I guess I made a booboo .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Dec-14-2006 at 07:57

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Whoops . EDIT: I guess it's a little too late for me to take back anything I said that you may have found objectionable. I'm not fond of being dishonest eigther, especially to avoid upsetting sensitivites. I try really hard not to do that being the (relatively) sensitive prick that I am . I also personally consider that to be somewhat disrespetful in a sense, which I don't want to be towards you eigther. I guess I made a booboo .

Don't worry about it, I'm almost impossible to offend. Not too good at avoiding offending other people though.

I don't understand why spirituality (the appreciation of the complex beauty of life and the universe) has to include a heirarchy involving God.

I assume it's because our species, and our direct pre-species, were social animals who functioned on the basis of power structures, not unlike packs of wolves.

We're so used to the heirarchy, whether it be ancient plains shamans, samurai lords, your boss at work, or the president of the united states. It's in our history and maybe even our genetics, so we make the shallow mistake that the universe itself must share this same heirarchy.

I guess we like having someone else having a large degree of our own responsibility.

But yeah, I really don't see at all why a spiritual connection with ourselves and the universe needs to include any heirarchy or God. :shrug:

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby I don't understand why spirituality (the appreciation of the complex beauty of life and the universe) has to include a heirarchy involving God.

I don't understand why new agers and modern society views religion as necessarily discluding:

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby spirituality (the appreciation of the complex beauty of life and the universe)

and be not much more than a heirarchical system of control, domination, and filth...

That's certainly not what it means to me...

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby I assume it's because our species, and our direct pre-species, were social animals who functioned on the basis of power structures, not unlike packs of wolves. We're so used to the heirarchy, whether it be ancient plains shamans, samurai lords, your boss at work, or the president of the united states. It's in our history and maybe even our genetics, so we make the shallow mistake that the universe itself must share this same heirarchy. I guess we like having someone else having a large degree of our own responsibility. But yeah, I really don't see at all why a spiritual connection with ourselves and the universe needs to include any heirarchy or God. :shrug:

Ofcourse, it can be, if people want to be sheep and not take responsibilty for themselves. But that's hardly unique to (perverted) religious ideology. Every political, philosophical, religious, and even economic doctrine is used by the few in power to control the many (eventually). Most people just don't realize the system they live under isn't. So it doesn't really come across as necessarily having any symbiotic relation with any of those ideologies per se, but more of a reflection of (the darker aspects of) human nature. Although, I think it has more to do with collective choice than human nature.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

You cannot hope to understand the supernatural through natural means. There is only so far you can go before it boils down to a question of faith. Much like we can not describe the universe before 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang because the current laws of physics were unified.

Remember, we are still a Level Zero Civilization, just about to transition into Level One. We still have barely made a pin-scratch into what we can possibly know. This debate will be open for centuries to come.

I'd be a lot more open to a 'god/goddess/great spirit' being up there if the followers of such things where not trying to ram it into my brain, knocking on my door when I'm trying to sleep (unknown people bashing on your door unexpectedly is not a good thing- ever) in and generally looking at me with the out to lunch, doe-eyed ferver you only usually see in two types of people.

1. People on E, who tend to be annoying and stupid.
2. People who are 'crazy' and not in a funny or harmless type of crazy, the cut up people and put them in pickle jars unless youre with them type of crazy.

If I'm really lucky, I'll get the reformed crack/smack/meth addict who found god on a street corner with their milk crate telling people how god saved their lives by getting them off the junk with love.
I'm sure god will really forgive you for stealing my car stereo last year when you where in DT's and needed a hit.
However, myself and anyone else who's been a part of your 'victimless' crimes thinks youre just a filthy arsehole, god loves you, great, I think youre an arsehole.
(that and you've probably got Hepatitis or some other hideously contagious disease so just keep the hell away from me)

Then theres the guys who just arent really trying at all... and you know who you are. The Scientologists and the Mormons, seriously, take a step back for a minute and listen to what youre shoveling.
Its a cult, made up by some modern day charismatic lunatics who are akin to the christian version of salmon John West rejects and something made up by a sci-fi author as a bit of a joke.
Kind of like uncle AJ Crowley and Gardner when they decided to make up Wicca after drinking too much and taking a lot of really WooHOO! narcotics for a few years. Best laugh of modern times that one!
Except some people think its 'real' where it slips from funny to just plain weird.

If I'm really unlucky, I'll meet some deranged muslim who thinks I should wear a full length, body covering garment even though my culture has nothing like that in it, neither does the Koran and probably not his culture either.
Because I'll be considered a 'piece of meat'.
I'm a modern lady, who makes a lot of money, independant, doesnt really hurt anyone and would barely offend anyone with how I look most days, unless god hates dreadlocks and short people too.
Wearing something from a foreign country is not going to endear god to me and god probably has better things to do anyway that be concerned with our sense of fashion. If he really wants to endear himself to me, he can immolate kids wearing tracksuits in shopping malls with backwards baseball caps on from a foreign country, then I might be sold... you can put the guns away now.

So, theres my quick, politically incorrect roundup of current religion as I see it and without mentioning all the wars over whether god has a tail or doesnt have a tail or who's got the prettier scripture.
Quintessentially, I just find a dork in a lab coat telling me in Carl Sagan monotone how the universe was made, how the stars float around up there and what keeps my two feet on the dirt, much less annoying, personally threatening and in my face.
There you go, a +1 for the nerds of the world

Last edited by Lilith on Dec-17-2006 at 13:03

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith I'd be a lot more open to a 'god/goddess/great spirit' being up there if the followers of such things where not trying to ram it into my brain, knocking on my door when I'm trying to sleep (unknown people bashing on your door unexpectedly is not a good thing- ever) in and generally looking at me with the out to lunch, doe-eyed ferver you only usually see in two types of people. 1. People on E, who tend to be annoying and stupid. 2. People who are 'crazy' and not in a funny or harmless type of crazy, the cut up people and put them in pickle jars unless youre with them type of crazy. If I'm really lucky, I'll get the reformed crack/smack/meth addict who found god on a street corner with their milk crate telling people how god saved their lives by getting them off the junk with love. I'm sure god will really forgive you for stealing my car stereo last year when you where in DT's and needed a hit. However, myself and anyone else who's been a part of your 'victimless' crimes thinks youre just a filthy arsehole, god loves you, great, I think youre an arsehole. (that and you've probably got Hepatitis or some other hideously contagious disease so just keep the hell away from me) Then theres the guys who just arent really trying at all... and you know who you are. The Scientologists and the Mormons, seriously, take a step back for a minute and listen to what youre shoveling. Its a cult, made up by some modern day charismatic lunatics who are akin to the christian version of salmon John West rejects and something made up by a sci-fi author as a bit of a joke. Kind of like uncle AJ Crowley and Gardner when they decided to make up Wicca after drinking too much and taking a lot of really WooHOO! narcotics for a few years. Best laugh of modern times that one! Except some people think its 'real' where it slips from funny to just plain weird. If I'm really unlucky, I'll meet some deranged muslim who thinks I should wear a full length, body covering garment even though my culture has nothing like that in it, neither does the Koran and probably not his culture either. Because I'll be considered a 'piece of meat'. I'm a modern lady, who makes a lot of money, independant, doesnt really hurt anyone and would barely offend anyone with how I look most days, unless god hates dreadlocks and short people too. Wearing something from a foreign country is not going to endear god to me and god probably has better things to do anyway that be concerned with our sense of fashion. If he really wants to endear himself to me, he can immolate kids wearing tracksuits in shopping malls with backwards baseball caps on from a foreign country, then I might be sold... you can put the guns away now. So, theres my quick, politically incorrect roundup of current religion as I see it and without mentioning all the wars over whether god has a tail or doesnt have a tail or who's got the prettier scripture. Quintessentially, I just find a dork in a lab coat telling me in Carl Sagan monotone how the universe was made, how the stars float around up there and what keeps my two feet on the dirt, much less annoying, personally threatening and in my face. There you go, a +1 for the nerds of the world

Great post.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't understand why new agers and modern society views religion as necessarily discluding:

The problem is that the major western modern religion today, Christianity, has from its very roots been about domination, suppression, and violence. That is the history of the "faith".

From the beginning in Rome, it was a struggle to suppress and control a generally tolerant atmosphere, and did so through false martyrdom to challenge the machine of the empire, and eventual fighting (non/other believers) and in-fighting (among sects), mindwashing, force, and other mountains of bullshit that among which I can find almost no positive trait or reason for it to exist.

Can you?

It is no coincidence that technology ground to a halt and the dark ages and middle ages were one of the down points for the western world in the last several millennia; we're just barely on the outskirts of it, so I don't expect people to understand why things happened or where they're going, but I do expect that in the next few millennia a lot of these backwards systems will be rendered obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby The problem is that the major western modern religion today, Christianity, has from its very roots been about domination, suppression, and violence. That is the history of the "faith". From the beginning in Rome, it was a struggle to suppress and control a generally tolerant atmosphere, and did so through false martyrdom to challenge the machine of the empire, and eventual fighting (non/other believers) and in-fighting (among sects), mindwashing, force, and other mountains of bullshit that among which I can find almost no positive trait or reason for it to exist. Can you? It is no coincidence that technology ground to a halt and the dark ages and middle ages were one of the down points for the western world in the last several millennia; we're just barely on the outskirts of it, so I don't expect people to understand why things happened or where they're going, but I do expect that in the next few millennia a lot of these backwards systems will be rendered obsolete.

Apparently you didn't pick up on my sarcasm here:

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't understand why new agers and modern society views religion as necessarily discluding:

I'm well aware of the history of Christianity (not that I necessarily agree with all aspects of your view on it). You can't generalize the experience of one religion to all others. All it reflects is ignorance and poor research.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller