quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Easy dude, I totally agree that the Administration's stance is completely full of shit. I don't agree with the topic of the book being the biblical creation of the Grand Canyon. I was more pointing out the tolerance vs. intolerance aspect of the conflicting "belief's". The science guys are at least open to other thoughts, no matter how wrong they may be (are). The religious guys are totally unaccepting of the science version. I give people enough credit to form whatever beliefs they want. I could n't give a shit what most people believe in. Then again, I'm not a religious person in the least. To each their own. Also, this is funny coming on the heels of a large chunk of the arctic ice shelf breaking free -> link and the proposal of the US Administration to have the polar bear labelled as endangered -> FOX News link

My apologies for misunderstanding you.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse I'm sorry, I didn't think it sounded vague. I'm saying that both books (in this case) should be allowed to be sold in the park office, just like the Park Service advocated. If you put the two books on the shelf side by side, I'm going to pick the one based on science, not creationism. I might pick up the creationist one just for a little laugh, but I wouldn't buy it in order to learn from it.

The problem I have with this is this is a National park funded by taxpayer dollars. If such ideas were to be held to which books sit side by side with varying beliefs, why then stop there? We could include the Flying Spaghetti Monster book, or my God - the Great Cookie Monster from the Planet Zoinks!

Or perhaps, just perhaps all books like these do not hold enough credible weight, especially when funded by taxpayer dollars? Perhaps I would find it prudent to have the books in those Parks that hold the most credence and most supported by the primary literature evidence given instead?

The Grand Canyon creation is not about beliefs - and selling books side by side based on mere "beliefs" is preposterous and belittling to geological science that clearly demonstrates age with supporting evidence.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 The problem I have with this is this is a National park funded by taxpayer dollars. If such ideas were to be held to which books sit side by side with varying beliefs, why then stop there? We could include the Flying Spaghetti Monster book, or my God - the Great Cookie Monster from the Planet Zoinks! Or perhaps, just perhaps all books like these do not hold enough credible weight, especially when funded by taxpayer dollars? Perhaps I would find it prudent to have the books in those Parks that hold the most credence and most supported by the primary literature evidence given instead? The Grand Canyon creation is not about beliefs - and selling books side by side based on mere "beliefs" is preposterous and belittling to geological science that clearly demonstrates age with supporting evidence.

I agree that it belittles the science involved. I do understand that a line would have to be drawn somewhere and in the interest of this discussion, the line is creationism vs. science. I'm firmly on the side of science as are most people (I think & hope). I agree that it might not be the best idea to aknowledge the creationist book, but I still give credit to the NPS for at least being open to aknowledge a different point of view (however absurd).

I'm having trouble finding the correct words to describe my larger point that religious fundamentalists (creationists) would seem to have a much more ridid and unbending view of the world as a whole than people that side with the scientific method.

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse I'm having trouble finding the correct words to describe my larger point that religious fundamentalists (creationists) would seem to have a much more ridid and unbending view of the world as a whole than people that side with the scientific method.

Maybe, for them, science doesn't do an adequate enough job of rationalizing?

Myself, I tend to be a fence sitter on the whole creationist/evolution battle. I mean, I do believe in a 'higher being' or a power greater than myself, however I'm not a religious/pious man even though I can respect those around me that are (whatever denomination).
I do believe that there are things that science can explain when it comes to tangible, terrestrial things, but there are other subjects that science can't touch when it comes to the ethereal, spiritual world which always leaves me with a sense of awe at times.


must be my inner hippie....

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Wall up one end, fill it full of mountain lions, rattlesnakes and bears, throw people in one end and make a reality TV show called 'Christian Survivor'



...damn I'm in a nasty mood this morning hehe!

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Maybe, for them, science doesn't do an adequate enough job of rationalizing? Myself, I tend to be a fence sitter on the whole creationist/evolution battle. I mean, I do believe in a 'higher being' or a power greater than myself, however I'm not a religious/pious man even though I can respect those around me that are (whatever denomination). I do believe that there are things that science can explain when it comes to tangible, terrestrial things, but there are other subjects that science can't touch when it comes to the ethereal, spiritual world which always leaves me with a sense of awe at times. must be my inner hippie....

Could be! I'm of the same mind though my "higher being" only becomes involved when contemplating the larger universe (which isn't often). That's something that science hasn't really proven (to a degree) even though it has very solid theories on the subject.

and lol @ Lilith... I would love to see a show like that!

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Wall up one end, fill it full of mountain lions, rattlesnakes and bears, throw people in one end and make a reality TV show called 'Christian Survivor' ...damn I'm in a nasty mood this morning hehe!

Something like this....?





I was actually thinking of the Monty Python skit when the Christians were in line and being asked, "Lion or Crucifix?" but this was good too...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse creationism vs. science

This does NOT exist!!

Science is NOT a belief system! It's a method of isolating information through repeated testing of constants and variables!!

There is no "religion vs science"; rather, it is people who are threatened by new information (the christians/muslims/whatevers) trying to keep some level of credence in the face of their own lack of information.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Maybe, for them, science doesn't do an adequate enough job of rationalizing? Myself, I tend to be a fence sitter on the whole creationist/evolution battle. I mean, I do believe in a 'higher being' or a power greater than myself, however I'm not a religious/pious man even though I can respect those around me that are (whatever denomination). I do believe that there are things that science can explain when it comes to tangible, terrestrial things, but there are other subjects that science can't touch when it comes to the ethereal, spiritual world which always leaves me with a sense of awe at times. must be my inner hippie....

Agreed 100%

The problem is that the spiritual world in the west has been turned into a joke; it's all power and money and it's a damn shame. That's not to say everyone is like that; not at all. But we need to raise the bar of education people receive so that people can rise and meet and exceed their own limitations.

I do believe (or is it just hope?) that one day people will see that they can be both spiritually connected to the universe AND be able to gather and process information in a myriad of useful ways (reason and logic deduction in the case of scientific inquiry, etc)