Perhaps some things were fated to happen and others were not. Perhaps this reaction ripples through the universe, sometimes disguised as 'free will', sometimes not - the illusion certainly seems withdrawn in some instances - we so often doubt people when they say "I simply had no choice" but when the time comes for us to say the same thing, everything we know tells us the very thing we once doubted.

Do I believe in fate? 'Believe' is a very funny word. I noticed several people here saying (and probably even more, thinking) that they would prefer free will, so they choose to 'believe' in that. It seems remarkably human to believe what you want and want what you believe, but how can people be so certain that the reality of the universe is how they perceive it to be? It seems such an odd thing to me because nothing else we do indicates as such - simply willing yourself to be happy and content and completely at ease can only bring you so far - the power of suggestion is indeed a very powerful tool, especially when it is self-administered, but it invariably has its limits. So how can people be so sure that what they want to believe is true? Needless to say, I have my doubts regarding their self-assurance...

I don't believe in fate and I don't disregard it either - the truth of things is never black or white, but rather a mixture of the two at some points and one or the other at separate occasions. I am, however, supremely interested in the notion that mankind is fated to be of the most supreme insignificance, considering the entropic void of all things.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

there was already a thread about this recently. cant remember exactly what i wrote, but im sure "fucking" and "morons" would have been included in my assessment of people that believe in things like fate

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I'd rather believe in the "force", atleast you get powers and a light sabre.

No not all. I don't believe in luck or anything like that too.

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you make your own path, every of your actions has reactions in your future

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NOBODY DOES THIS ANYMORE

I don't believe we are all subject to control by an outside force that has pre-determined everything for us. If this is your idea of fate then no. I do believe, however, that all of our decisions are based on the knowledge and experience we have available to us at the time which the decision is made. In every instance the decision we make is the only one we could make given the criteria upon which we based it. In this manner I believe in fate, to the extent that our actions are predictable based on our knowledge and experience.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN there was already a thread about this recently. cant remember exactly what i wrote, but im sure "fucking" and "morons" would have been included in my assessment of people that believe in things like fate

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=380451

Although it's not reasonable to blindly believe in a supernatural phenomenom (such as fate), dismissing both believers and the belief itself out of prejudice is not any better. As Halcyon said, "I noticed several people here saying (and probably even more, thinking) that they would prefer free will, so they choose to 'believe' in that", which makes the validity of either side just as pointless.

1. What is fate?

First of all, we should first try to find out what you mean by fate and, according to LittleGoku, fate would have 7 different definitions, which we should explore:

1. something that unavoidably befalls a person; fortune; lot: It is always his fate to be left behind: In other words, this kind of faith, rather than something supernatural, is just a repeating pattern in someone's life as perceived by oneself or someone else.
   
   The belief in such pattern depends naturally on the context. If, as in the example, someone is always left behind, there's no reason to ignore the fact that this is a pattern that has happened repeatedly so far (yet, it doesn't mean that this needs to happen in the future either. Rather it's just an example of what we could expect).
   
   
2. the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time: Fate decreed that they would never meet again.: As Sartre said, this notion of fate is hard to believe because we don't feel compelled to do things in general (unless you've got voices in your head telling you to do stuff, or something along these lines). Or, at the very least, you don't perceive such supernatural compulsion.
   
   The fact is - there are no reasons to believe in such thing, and this may be a very biased statement based on my cultural background. However, I've done pretty well without such notion, so I'm inclined to believe I didn't need it at all in the first place.
   
   
3. that which is inevitably predetermined; destiny: Death is our ineluctable fate.: This one is hard to rebut. Although nothing assures us that future events need to be exactly like the past ones, the fact that we know a good share of deceased people is an indication that we will potentially die at some point, for example.
   
   It would be utterly optimistic not to believe in this, which can actually be a good thing depending on the context.
   
   
4. a prophetic declaration of what must be: The oracle pronounced their fate.: Well... if an oracle told me I will die someday, what are the odds of this prediction being false? (or, as in Speech Act Theory, unhappy).
   
   Once again, this relies heavily on the context.
   
   
5. death, destruction, or ruin. : If you allow me, I'm going to skip this one, because there's no reason whatsoever why I should take this path
   
   
6. the Fates, Classical Mythology. the three goddesses of destiny, known to the Greeks as the Moerae and to the Romans as the Parcae. : Well, mythological beings exist as pretty much any other character. Saying that Santa Claus doesn't exist, for example, is a matter of narrowing your reference: there isn't a Santa Claus, but there's is a concept (curiously created by Coca-Cola ) of who Santa Claus is.
   
   
7. to predetermine, as by the decree of fate; destine (used in the passive): a person who was fated to be the savior of the country. : A verb, in itself, can't be true or false. It's a state and, in a worst case scenario, it's a state without any prior occurences.
   

2. How is this fate?

We know, well enough, that fate is not restricted to that. Talking about case (b), we should know, for example, whether it's a matter of weak predestination or whether we're talking about fatalism. Fatalism, for example, is hard to be taken seriously, as you can see in the example given by wikipedia:

• If it is fated for you to recover from your illness, then you will recover whether you call a doctor or not;
  
• Likewise, if you are fated not to recover, you will not do so even if you call a doctor;
  
• So, calling a doctor makes no difference.
  

Most of us wouldn't take this seriously, although this has been discussed a lot in the past, as you can see here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/

3. Fate and religion

Finally, there's no reason why one should believe fate and religion are mutually exclusive. Within Christianity, for example, there are both followers that believe in faith, and followers that believe it contradicts the idea of free-will.

4. Conclusion

It is our fate to be free

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Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I don't believe we are all subject to control by an outside force that has pre-determined everything for us. If this is your idea of fate then no. I do believe, however, that all of our decisions are based on the knowledge and experience we have available to us at the time which the decision is made. In every instance the decision we make is the only one we could make given the criteria upon which we based it. In this manner I believe in fate, to the extent that our actions are predictable based on our knowledge and experience.

from the thread arbiter linked

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I find the entire question of fate/destiny to be a little silly. You will always hear the arguments of pre-determination vs. free will and inevitably someone will question who is pulling our strings or what their mysterious master plan is. It's all hog wash. I don't believe that all of our actions are pre-determined by any outside force, however, I do believe that in any given situation there is only one course of action / reaction we can take. This is not determined by anything outside of ourselves, it is determined by our experience, motivations, thought processes and beliefs. What ever decision I make in a given situation is the only decision I could make because it is the only one I would allow myself to make. The only way we could possibly go against our inclinations is if we had foreknowlege of the results of our intended action, since we don't we are destined to do whatever it is we do.

Wow, I'm consistant!

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

no

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My soliloquy may be hard for some to swallow, but so is cod liver oil.

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Originally posted by notelfreak man i can't believe i tried to come off as responsible in that other thread, i am so full of shit just don't tell anyone

from my experience United States is big on fate.

(not saying everybody) but more so than the general population everywhere else.

you learn this when you date european and american girls - especially catholic american girls are all about that fate bullshit.

i think those who succumb to the belief of fate are very weak minded individuals. to relinquish control of your life to some "higher" power is pretty much giving up on it. so if you believe in fate... well then you might as well die.