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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Jimmy Carter steps in his own ****.
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Why dont you address my muslim example then?


You didn't give an example, you provided an irrelevant hypothetical hoping to add weight to your already empty argument.

quote:
Is it hard to understand? Im not surprised they are jewish.


Does the fact that some of them are Jewish have anything to do with the book having factual errors and inaccuracies? Would it matter if they were black midgets? You're simply sidestepping the real issue.


quote:
So many books have factual errors.... and copied materials...superficialitlies.. and all the things you claim have made these people so "insulted".... but does is that really a good reason to resign?


So that makes it OK then? If so many books have factual errors and it's okay, how can you have any confidence in any of your views about anything? This is pathetic reasoning and an even more pathetic rationalization.

quote:
Why are they mostly jewish? If this was the case.. wouldnt his WHOLE organization resign??


You got me. In my world people think for themselves and make their own decisions. If a person choses to resign that is his or her prerogative. The group think is for commies and socialists. The fact that such a large group stepped down speaks volumes about Carter's book if they felt strongly enough.


quote:
Im not supporting him becuase hes american.. im supporting him becuase he has the guts to actually say what he thinks about ISrael.. in a heavily zionist influenced coutnry


So you've read the book then?

Old Post Jan-12-2007 19:27  United States
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
You didn't give an example, you provided an irrelevant hypothetical hoping to add weight to your already empty argument.



Does the fact that some of them are Jewish have anything to do with the book having factual errors and inaccuracies? Would it matter if they were black midgets? You're simply sidestepping the real issue.




So that makes it OK then? If so many books have factual errors and it's okay, how can you have any confidence in any of your views about anything? This is pathetic reasoning and an even more pathetic rationalization.



You got me. In my world people think for themselves and make their own decisions. If a person choses to resign that is his or her prerogative. The group think is for commies and socialists. The fact that such a large group stepped down speaks volumes about Carter's book if they felt strongly enough.




So you've read the book then?


Hate to break it to you.. but it wasnt the "morality" of the book that caused anger.. its the fact that they were jewish.. and they are very sensitive to the topic... even when it exposes the zionist state.

Here is the "hypothetical situation"

Carter writes a book about Islam.... and states his analysis of the situation.. many muslims resign. GET IT??????


___________________
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-MARCO V

Old Post Jan-12-2007 19:55 
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Here is the "hypothetical situation"

Carter writes a book about Islam.... and states his analysis of the situation.. many muslims resign. GET IT??????


Yeah, I get that you rationalize your stance by trying to argue that a hypothetical situation would unfold in a specific way according to your belief system when you have no actual situation to fall back on to prove your point. I get that instead of trying to actually prove your point by citing factual accuracies in the book where the critics claim there are falsehoods, you would rather depend on a hypothetical situation that is meaningless to this discussion. Yeah, I get it now.

Old Post Jan-12-2007 20:18  United States
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Yeah, I get that you rationalize your stance by trying to argue that a hypothetical situation would unfold in a specific way according to your belief system when you have no actual situation to fall back on to prove your point. I get that instead of trying to actually prove your point by citing factual accuracies in the book where the critics claim there are falsehoods, you would rather depend on a hypothetical situation that is meaningless to this discussion. Yeah, I get it now.


every fuckin book on this issue has "falsifications" depending on which side you stand on.

And there are just as many supporters of the book that back up his claims. SO whats your point? Why are you taking the side of the critics that just point out falsifications without them actually proving Carter wrong?

Its NOT SURPRISING THAT THEY ARE JEWISH AND WOULD RESIGN


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Jan-12-2007 20:27 
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
every fuckin book on this issue has "falsifications" depending on which side you stand on.


That's still a sad argument to fall back on. Why should anyone ever take you seriously if, by your own admission, every single book you've ever read on this subject matter has misinformation in it? How can you, who has some of the strongest viewpoints on this board, have any confidence that you are even making cogent arguments when you run your mouth? You can't. And we're talking about more than just a few "falsifications," which in and of itself is sad. Wouldn't you expect higher standards from an ex-American President of all people. OK, well maybe not you personally since you hate American government, but you'd still expect something more credible from such a person, generally speaking.

quote:
And there are just as many supporters of the book that back up his claims. SO whats your point? Why are you taking the side of the critics that just point out falsifications without them actually proving Carter wrong?



OK then wiseguy--here's what your favorite Jew boy Stein had to say. It sounds like he speaks from a pretty unique and priveledged point of view:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/016123.php

quote:
This note is to inform you that yesterday, I sent letters to President Jimmy Carter, Emory University President Jim Wagner, and Dr. John Hardman, Executive Director of the Carter Center resigning my position, effectively immediately, as Middle East Fellow of the Carter Center of Emory University. This ends my 23 year association with an institution that in some small way I helped shape and develop. My joint academic position in Emory College in the History and Political Science Departments, and, as Director of the Emory Institute for the Study of Modern Israel remains unchanged.

Many still believe that I have an active association with the Center and, act as an adviser to President Carter, neither is the case. President Carter has intermittently continued to come to the Arab-Israeli Conflict class I teach in Emory College. He gives undergraduate students a fine first hand recollection of the Begin-Sadat negotiations of the late 1970s. Since I left the Center physically thirteen years ago, the Middle East program of the Center has waned as has my status as a Carter Center Fellow. For the record, I had nothing to do with the research, preparation, writing, or review of President Carter's recent publication. Any material which he used from the book we did together in 1984, The Blood of Abraham, he used unilaterally.

President Carter's book on the Middle East, a title too inflammatory to even print, is not based on unvarnished analyses; it is replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments. Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book. Being a former President does not give one a unique privilege to invent information or to unpack it with cuts, deftly slanted to provide a particular outlook.Having little access to Arabic and Hebrew sources, I believe, clearly handicapped his understanding and analyses of how history has unfolded over the last decade. Falsehoods, if repeated often enough become meta-truths, and they then can become the erroneous baseline for shaping and reinforcing attitudes and for policy-making. The history and interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict is already drowning in half-truths, suppositions, and self-serving myths; more are not necessary. In due course, I shall detail these points and reflect on their origins.

The decade I spent at the Carter Center (1983-1993) as the first permanent Executive Director and as the first Fellow were intellectually enriching for Emory as an institution, the general public, the interns who learned with us, and for me professionally. Setting standards for rigorous interchange and careful analyses spilled out to the other programs that shaped the Center's early years. There was mutual respect for all views; we carefully avoided polemics or special pleading. This book does not hold to those standards. My continued association with the Center leaves the impression that I am sanctioning a series of egregious errors and polemical conclusions which appeared in President Carter's book. I can not allow that impression to stand.

Through Emory College, I have continued my professional commitment to inform students and the general public about the history and politics of Israel, the Middle East, and American policies toward the region. I have tried to remain true to a life-time devotion to scholarly excellence based upon unvarnished analyses and intellectual integrity. I hold fast to the notion that academic settings and those in positions of influence must teach and not preach. Through Emory College, in public lectures, and in OPED writings, I have adhered to the strong belief that history must presented in context, and understood the way it was, not the way we wish it to be.

In closing, let me thank you for your friendship, past and continuing support for ISMI, and to Emory College. Let me also wish you and your loved ones a happy holiday season, and a healthy and productive new year.

As ever,
Ken

Dr. Kenneth W. Stein,
Professor of Contemporary Middle Eastern History, Political Science,
and Israeli Studies,
Director, Middle East Research Program and
Emory Institute for the Study of Modern Israel
Atlanta, Georgia




quote:
Its NOT SURPRISING THAT THEY ARE JEWISH AND WOULD RESIGN


Frankly, if the book is as inaccurate as the detractors claim, why would their race even matter? Their resignation is based on the fact that the book is blatantly wrong, not because they are Jewish and have a bone to pick. Again, this just speaks volumes about your own personal prejudices (even though you love to claim you don't have any).

Old Post Jan-12-2007 20:55  United States
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Nautilus
No Talk, All Action



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Irvine, California

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Yeah, I get that you rationalize your stance by trying to argue that a hypothetical situation would unfold in a specific way according to your belief system when you have no actual situation to fall back on to prove your point. I get that instead of trying to actually prove your point by citing factual accuracies in the book where the critics claim there are falsehoods, you would rather depend on a hypothetical situation that is meaningless to this discussion. Yeah, I get it now.


And I've yet to read where you have cited these specific "egregious errors and polemical conclusions" yourself.

Old Post Jan-12-2007 21:44  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Nautilus
And I've yet to read where you have cited these specific "egregious errors and polemical conclusions" yourself.


Despite the fact that he's Jewish, several of Stein's claims are validated by his unique position in all of this, as illustrated in an above post. Having been at many of the meetings described by Carter first hand, he can credibly comment on the events that transpired which he says were inaccurately recounted by Carter. There are examples where maps have been plaguerized in his book--a big literary no-no. Furthermore,

quote:

In a column published in last week's Boston Globe, former US president Jimmy Carter complained that ever since his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid came out, he has been called "a liar, plagiarist, anti-Semite, racist, bigot, ignorant, etc."

I have not read the book. But the column alone proves that some of those epithets are justified.

For instance, Carter complains that "an enormous wall snakes through … what is left of the West Bank … obviously designed to acquire more property and protect the Israeli colonies already built." Aside from the misleading terminology (the barrier is mostly fence, not wall) and the false implication of massive annexation (more than 90 percent of the West Bank remains on the Palestinian side), there is an obvious problem with his "obvious" explanation of the fence's objective: Not only does Israel claim that its purpose is stopping suicide bombers, but the evidence supports that claim.

First, the fence was only inaugurated two years into the intifada, as Israel's death toll from terror attacks approached the 500 mark. Carter not only fails to mention this, he disingenuously implies that it has existed for decades by preceding his diatribe with the phrase "for 39 years, Israel has occupied Palestinian land..."

Second, Israeli casualties of Palestinian terror have declined by almost 50 percent a year since construction began in 2002, indicating that the fence is in fact serving its stated defensive purpose.

To obscure this inconvenient fact, Carter offers an astounding alternative explanation: "Hamas declared a unilateral cease-fire in August 2004 … which they claim is the reason for reductions in casualties to Israeli citizens."

Even overlooking the six-month inaccuracy - Hamas announced the "lull" only in February 2005 - this "explanation" ignores the fact that the drop in casualties began fully two years earlier, following Operation Defensive Shield in spring 2002. Thus by the intifada's third year, October 2002 through September 2003, the Israeli death toll was already a whopping 47% lower than the second year's figure.

EVEN MORE astonishing, however, is Carter's disregard for the fact that Hamas has proudly claimed credit for various deadly attacks even since February 2005 - including the firing of hundreds of rockets at southern Israel and the cross-border raid that kidnapped one soldier and killed two this past June.

Then there is Carter's claim that "Mahmoud Abbas ... has sought to negotiate with Israel for almost six years, without success. Hamas leaders support such negotiations, promising to accept the results if approved by a Palestinian referendum."

Carter somehow neglects to mention that for four of those six years, the Palestinian Authority's leader was not Abbas, but Yasser Arafat - who had already rejected an offer of a Palestinian state in some 95% of the territories, including east Jerusalem, in July 2000, and underscored his rejection by launching the intifada, which has thus far claimed over 1,100 Israeli lives. Carter also neglects to mention that a year after Arafat's death, Palestinian voters ousted Abbas's party and elected Hamas, which openly advocates Israel's eradication.

Most astonishing, however, is his falsification of Hamas's position. Hamas indeed has no problem with letting Abbas negotiate further Israeli withdrawals. But Carter neglects to mention the caveat that Hamas leaders reiterate almost daily: The most they are willing to offer - in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 lines, plus a "right of return" for Palestinian refugees - is a multiyear truce, after which they will resume trying to eradicate Israel.

Consider, for instance, PA Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar's statement of his party's position in October: "We will never recognize Israel, and the end of the Zionists will be like the end of the Crusaders, Persians and British... We want all of Palestine, every centimeter, from the sea to the river, from Rosh Hanikra to Rafah. If we can establish a state in the 1967 borders we will do so, but that does not mean we will give up our right to a centimeter of the land of Palestine."

Carter can hardly be ignorant of these statements, because unlike Arafat - who reserved such comments for the Arabic-language media - Hamas leaders obligingly repeat them for the English-language press. So with the party that controls the PA openly declaring its commitment to Israel's destruction, just what does Carter think there is to negotiate about?

THEN THERE is Carter's complaint that "food supplies in Gaza [are] equivalent to those among the poorest families in sub-Sahara Africa," due to "economic restrictions imposed on [the Palestinians] by Israel and the United States because 42 percent voted for Hamas candidates in this year's election."

That "42%" is an ingenious touch, allowing him to omit the fact that Hamas won an absolute parliamentary majority. He also neglects to mention Hamas's open advocacy of Israel's destruction, or that the main "economic restriction" imposed by Israel and the US was halting fund transfers to the Hamas government. All this enables him to avoid uncomfortable questions, such as why either Jerusalem or Washington should transfer money to a government that openly seeks Israel's eradication.

His touching comparison to sub-Sahara Africa also ignores the fact that even after Hamas's election, Palestinians remain the largest per-capita recipients of international aid in the world. Indeed, the PA's largest donor, the European Union, increased aid to the Palestinians by 27% this year, to $865 million. The only difference is that instead of going to the Hamas government, this money is being funneled through Abbas and organizations such as UNRWA. If it is not reaching needy Palestinians, that is hardly Israel's doing.

Finally, there is Carter's blithe claim that "an overwhelming majority" of Palestinians want peace. Given repeated polls showing that, for instance, 67% of Palestinians support Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel, 63% support bombarding Israeli cities with rockets, 57% support suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and 75% favor kidnapping Israeli soldiers, it is hard to know on what Carter bases this optimism.

But of course, that question presumes that Carter cares about the facts. His entire column says otherwise.


Source

Old Post Jan-12-2007 22:03  United States
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

Shakka, do you even know what the Carter Center's mission is? The fact that anyone resigned over a bad fact in a book is, well, political, and, if you know the purpose of the center that they support, pretty pathetic.


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Old Post Jan-14-2007 22:11  United Nations
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Shakka, do you even know what the Carter Center's mission is? The fact that anyone resigned over a bad fact in a book is, well, political, and, if you know the purpose of the center that they support, pretty pathetic.


1) The Carter Center is a presidential museum/library here in town--I'm not sure I follow your point. 2) I think you're trivializing something that is more significant than just "a bad fact in a book."

Old Post Jan-15-2007 04:16  United States
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Shakka, do you even know what the Carter Center's mission is? The fact that anyone resigned over a bad fact in a book is, well, political, and, if you know the purpose of the center that they support, pretty pathetic.


Obviously those that quit had some moral standards as well as not supporting lies; what's so hard to understand?

I would argue that NOT quitting while not agreeing with either the facts or their conscience is more pathetic than fooling one's self.

They apparently felt what they did was right and they were right in doing so.


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jan-17-2007 06:28  Canada
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