like a maxi pad spread the wings

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could anyone (topicstarter?) describe me the benefits of sampling over freezing?
Or at least the exact reason why the multi-sampling is so important...

Just being curious

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Sampled pads are much quicker to implement into tracks imo. As a WAVE, you can quickly pre-listen them instead of going through VSTi.
Also, you can quickly reverse them for some interesting fx. And, they don't take up much CPU!!!

My questions are as follows:
1) What should be the length of such sample? I was thinking of either sampling 4 or 8 bar length. What do you recommend?

2) Should it be looped or just a normal single-shot with full release?

3) Should I apply fading to the samples? This could probably be done using ADSR envelopes later in the sampler.

MutliSampling is important because like someone said, unless your melody doesn't transpose more than like 3 notes, its going to sound shit when pitch shifted to another octave.

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quote:

Originally posted by superddman Sampled pads are much quicker to implement into tracks imo. As a WAVE, you can quickly pre-listen them instead of going through VSTi. Also, you can quickly reverse them for some interesting fx. And, they don't take up much CPU!!! My questions are as follows: 1) What should be the length of such sample? I was thinking of either sampling 4 or 8 bar length. What do you recommend? 2) Should it be looped or just a normal single-shot with full release? 3) Should I apply fading to the samples? This could probably be done using ADSR envelopes later in the sampler.

1) Preferably of a length which allows you to play the intire sample as one piece in a song, or on a length which allows seamless looping.

2) Depends on what you need, but looping would be nice, then the lengths of the sound will allways be good if it's short or even 10 min long.

3) Would that make the transitions smoother between the chords? Is that what you want (smoothness), then yes. Otherwise keep it rough.

You make the rules, it really depends on what you need and want.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja MutliSampling is important because like someone said, unless your melody doesn't transpose more than like 3 notes, its going to sound shit when pitch shifted to another octave.

And that's exactly why I recommended freezing, no multisampling necessary, no shitty sound, and wav playback just as well. Very cpu efficient, and it takes only little time (way less than multisampling, and importing, and editing the envelopes & looping points).

I personally think multisampling would almost only be a necessity if you're recording from an external (hardware) source.

Last time I actually manually used multi-sampling is like 5 years ago when I still used impulse tracker
A lot of sample based vsti's have these features configured to perfection internally, outside the range of the user, and it would be a waste of time doing the exact thing all over again when it is actually right to begin with. For me personally that is...

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Last edited by Storyteller on Feb-10-2007 at 00:03

quote:

Originally posted by superddman Sampled pads are much quicker to implement into tracks imo. As a WAVE, you can quickly pre-listen them instead of going through VSTi. Also, you can quickly reverse them for some interesting fx. And, they don't take up much CPU!!! My questions are as follows: 1) What should be the length of such sample? I was thinking of either sampling 4 or 8 bar length. What do you recommend? 2) Should it be looped or just a normal single-shot with full release? 3) Should I apply fading to the samples? This could probably be done using ADSR envelopes later in the sampler.

Make it easy:

1)Dont know how to program a decent pad?
Answer: Get a rompler like Atmosphere or Nexus! (None of them is a CPU eater!) I would make them 16 bar. Cus pads usually plays longer cords,,right!

2)Well, if your going to have a sampler, make them dry and looped. Cus with most samplers today you can adjust the feeling of the sound in it. But if you tend to use single shot samples in individual channels (which is just stupid) you need to adjust the sample as you want it, before you bounce it.

3)As i said, ^^ !

But this seems like a really stupid idea to be honest (If it isnt that you wanna sample a friends hardware synth or anything) Otherwise i should recomend to use a rompler, like i mentioned above.

The Atmosphere has really nice sounds, but it takes a while to get a grip on all sounds (i think the browser sucks) but it has a huge potensial, and it easy to layer the sounds.

Dont know about the Nexus so much yet. But after testing the demo and by listening to the sounds demo im impressed by the sounds, AND its really CPU friendly. Dont know so much on what control you have on the sounds (like layering) But i read that this part isnt that good.

Anyway... you do as you like, but these are just my personal suggestions.

Cheers
C

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Thanks guys for some good info.
Both Storyteller and Substorm had some interesting tips.

I still think that there are advantages of using sampled pads over VSTi (even romplers). I will attempt to follow this path and let you know if it was succesful.


For now, I've been doing some testing and here are my thoughts:

1) Looped pads are great for long durations but you don't have that natural attack and release so when a pad starts or stops playing, it suddenly cuts off. Volume envelopes can prevent that but it still doesn't sound natural.

2) Making a long 16 bar single-shot is also nice for long durations but what if I want the pad to change notes more frequently. How would I go about doing that with a 16 bar pad sample?

3) Making a short 2 or 4 bar single shot sample is nice for frequent note changes but what if I want the pad to play a long duration? The answer is to repeat this sample with a slow attack and release which creates smooth transitions. Therefore, I can use such pad for quick note changes and also long pad sequences. The only draw back here is that the pad might sound a bit too repetitive.

4) I don't think there is a need for multisamples. Current pitch shifting algorithms are amazing and after doing some tests, even pitch shifting a complex pad to an octave higher still sounded very close to the original sample.

What do you think about these observations?

If there was a good way to implement observation #2 so that a long pad can be used for shorter pad sequences, then I would probably go with this option. Otherwise, I think I will stick with observation #3.

Some random benefits I think of (to storyteller)

The point of multi-sampling is that you can have a truthful copy of the vst patch in a universal format. Most samplers can load each others' file system, so you can exchange patches with others, while still keeping the midi flexible. Also, you still have the wave files if the next OS doesn't support your favorite softsynth.

I agree in most cases freezing (except the sucky one in cubase, there you bounce) is much more straightforward than multisampling but it has its own use.

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quote:

Originally posted by superddman Thanks guys for some good info. Both Storyteller and Substorm had some interesting tips. I still think that there are advantages of using sampled pads over VSTi (even romplers). I will attempt to follow this path and let you know if it was succesful. For now, I've been doing some testing and here are my thoughts: 1) Looped pads are great for long durations but you don't have that natural attack and release so when a pad starts or stops playing, it suddenly cuts off. Volume envelopes can prevent that but it still doesn't sound natural. 2) Making a long 16 bar single-shot is also nice for long durations but what if I want the pad to change notes more frequently. How would I go about doing that with a 16 bar pad sample? 3) Making a short 2 or 4 bar single shot sample is nice for frequent note changes but what if I want the pad to play a long duration? The answer is to repeat this sample with a slow attack and release which creates smooth transitions. Therefore, I can use such pad for quick note changes and also long pad sequences. The only draw back here is that the pad might sound a bit too repetitive. 4) I don't think there is a need for multisamples. Current pitch shifting algorithms are amazing and after doing some tests, even pitch shifting a complex pad to an octave higher still sounded very close to the original sample. What do you think about these observations? If there was a good way to implement observation #2 so that a long pad can be used for shorter pad sequences, then I would probably go with this option. Otherwise, I think I will stick with observation #3.

Well if you make it a 16... yes its a bigger file, but as you said if you want a more natrual sound, i would not make the samples 4 or 6. you can still tweak the samples with a good sampler, so that with a 16 sample you still get those smooth transitions with 4, 6 and 8 th´s.

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Latest tune:Dj Eco - Paradise now (Onova remix) [Lunatique records]

quote:

Originally posted by superddman Thanks guys for some good info. Both Storyteller and Substorm had some interesting tips. I still think that there are advantages of using sampled pads over VSTi (even romplers). I will attempt to follow this path and let you know if it was succesful. For now, I've been doing some testing and here are my thoughts: 1) Looped pads are great for long durations but you don't have that natural attack and release so when a pad starts or stops playing, it suddenly cuts off. Volume envelopes can prevent that but it still doesn't sound natural. 2) Making a long 16 bar single-shot is also nice for long durations but what if I want the pad to change notes more frequently. How would I go about doing that with a 16 bar pad sample? 3) Making a short 2 or 4 bar single shot sample is nice for frequent note changes but what if I want the pad to play a long duration? The answer is to repeat this sample with a slow attack and release which creates smooth transitions. Therefore, I can use such pad for quick note changes and also long pad sequences. The only draw back here is that the pad might sound a bit too repetitive. 4) I don't think there is a need for multisamples. Current pitch shifting algorithms are amazing and after doing some tests, even pitch shifting a complex pad to an octave higher still sounded very close to the original sample. What do you think about these observations? If there was a good way to implement observation #2 so that a long pad can be used for shorter pad sequences, then I would probably go with this option. Otherwise, I think I will stick with observation #3.

I may be wrong on all this but
1/ can't you loop the sustain portion of the pad then keep the release for when you release the key?

2/ you set it up to not play the whole way through the sample, just until you release the note at which point it plays the release part of the sample, I'm not sure I understood this question

4/ Yes there is. If you have a pad which sounds ok then thats cool, but I have never found anything which works when shifted one octave up.

The thing that worries me about this whole thing is that you have to sample each individual note! That will be a pain in ableton! I wish someone could just write a script!

Wow, I've finally got it. It is so simple too.

All you need is a sampler that has AHDSR envelopes.

The secret is to make the Attack longer and the Release shorter. What a secret, eh?

Here is a result:
The following audio clip consists of only a single "8-bar-long-pad-loop-sample". You could also use a single-shot sample.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.p...D4485226A66EC1F

Notice how this "8-bar-long-pad-loop" is being played at 1-bar-long-notes with a natural attack and release.

Also, notice how it is alternating in pitch (1 octave up and down!!!), showing the power of current pitch shifting algorithms.

In the last 8 bars of this audio clip, the full "8-bar-long-pad-loop" is being played. The sudden drop at the end shows that this indeed is a loop sample.

lol..
thought you were over the very basics. Anyway, you can only use release when you have samples that are long enough. In any other (and a much more decent) way you'll need to get your samples looped seamless.

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