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Originally posted by NeoPhono Did you read what I posted? If the US left, of course violence towards them would stop, at least in Iraq. I'm talking about the widespread violence of Iraqis vs. Iraqis. You have three large ethnic groups that all hate each other. If given the chance, and free reign, either one would be more than happy to slaughter the others. Right now the only thing stopping that (and just barely) is the US military. So again, if the US completely pulls out, what is going to stop the massacres?

What makes you think UN is not capable of stopping th enthnic clashes? What is US doing to stop these clashes? Are they killing who they think can clash and cause violence? They are standing gaurd, stopping cars, checking, frisking.. UN can do that too. US has done nothing extraordinary, nothing special to contain these clashes and which UN cant do. UN has proved its worth in Kosovo, and much much harder places in Africa. Iraq is a pussy when it comes to gurella warfare in comparision to Africa, but UN has proved its worth in African countries in past. And with world support, world logistics, world's finance, world's political support (The biggest weakness of US at present in Iraq is US lacks world 'political' support), world's forces, UN can and will do much better job than US.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Right now there are two choices: 1) Allow the US to stay, hopefully until enough Iraqi police are trained to maintain peace themselves. While that happens there will be violence against the US and the US against Iraqis. Hundreds to thousands will die.

This Iraqi police training will only get worst with time, their is already stories of Iraqies defecting US after receiving training to join hands with insurgents and 'terrorists' groups. Iraqies dont join police training because they are nationalist, or they are loyal to US forces, they join because they want a frigging job, and when 'terrorists organisations' start recruiting they offer better package to 'Iraqi Police' who join hands with insurgents than.

This Iraqi police training is the worst shit of all. It lacks basic loyalty. It will explode sometime or later, where you will see a Hamas winning elections like situtaion. Iraqies 'police' run and leave police station giving arms to insurgents.. where do you think they run back to? training camps to get police training again? Lot of Iraqi police will be a 'terrorist' after reciving police training, just keep arming them and training them.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono 2) help from neighboring governments, first destroy the existing Iraqi democratic government,

And this is another reason why US dosent want to leave Iraq. They are scared that once they leave, than instead of US puppet govt. Iraq will have Iran pro govt and this will be a problem for them. Yes there will be a Iran-pro govt in Iraq, and theit is nothing that will stop it. Unless US invades Iran and installs a 'democratic' govt their too!

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Originally posted by NeoPhono The US leaves, you have no Iraqi/US violence, but you have tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights for control.

This is the fear that is set in your mind by the US media, that Iraqies are killing machines and they will kill everyone once Us leaves. Nothing like that will happen, ethnic fights for control happens in all Muslim countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Ujbek, Kasak.. but this 'tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights' dosent happen. Its the gift of media instigating fear that this will happen, they all gonna die if US leaves.

Nothing like that will happen, dare I say teargas is enough to contain that in city area and UN tanks with UN written over it and permission to shoot in air is all needed to contain ethnic clashes in remote area. This is just the fear instigated in everyone's mind by US media.

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Last edited by Purple on Feb-15-2007 at 19:07

Purple...quite simply, I'm very glad you aren't in charge of international policy.

Sure, the UN did a great job in Kosovo. Coming in after the war, after upwards of 250,000 people had been displaced and maintaining "peace." Not exactly analogous to present day Iraq. Oh, and the UN-controlled peace in Kosovo has been great except for LINK or LINK or LINK or LINK.

Also, would you care to name some of these African countries that they've helped in the last 20 or so years? They're doing a great job in Sudan, and were awesome in Rawanda, Zaire, and Somalia.

It's also great to know that since "ethnic fights for control happens in all Muslim countries," you don't seem to have a problem if it happens in Iraq.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that everything you say is based on false assumptions. You assume the UN will be better, when the past 20 years have shown they are both slow and reluctant to act, and when they do, their results are marginal at best. Also, you assume that the ethnic fighting that will occur in Iraq will be relatively death free. Well...take a look.

LINK

Already ethnic fighting since the US invasion has led to 400,000 deaths.

The only thing keeping the country together is US forces. The civil war in Iraq has already dealt out hundreds of thousands of deaths. If you don't mind seeing hundreds of thousands more than seeing the US leave and the UN enter is exactly what you'd be hoping for.

Last edited by NeoPhono on Feb-16-2007 at 03:49

I can't believe the U.S. wouldn't have thought that far ahead to see the potential wedge they have actually become.
I simply don't trust the U.N. to do anything in the way of 'peace-keeping' as their record (as NeoPhono has so eloquently pointed out) for 'keeping-peace' is woeful at best.
If I had to guess, the U.S. knew this, which is why they circumvented the U.N. in the first place, or watch yet another massacre as a direct result of the beaucratic tar-pit that is the U.N.
They had no reason to trust them, especially with Koffi lining his pockets in one of the biggest international scandals of our time (Food for Oil anyone?).
Its like trusting the cat to watch your goldfish - ain't gonna happen.

Don't get me wrong (and I find myself repeating this from time to time), the U.N. does have some great divisions that are definiately needed, however, peace-keeping just doesn't appear to be one of them let alone, and most importantly, resolving conflicts...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by XaNaX Do you live in Bizarro world? I don't know where you get your information on the situation in Iraq but it's not even remotely based on facts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but think about where you get your information from, as well. The American media? If you - unlike most Americans - read international newssites also, such as British or European press, I take that back. But if not, there's thousands of facts that are passing you by daily.

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Originally posteed by Fir3start3r I can't believe the U.S. wouldn't have thought that far ahead to see the potential wedge they have actually become.

Why not, sir? These guys were genuinely shocked to see the results of their actions. Why would you expect people who expected to be greeted with open arms to have any kind of knowledge about the place?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Why not, sir? These guys were genuinely shocked to see the results of their actions. Why would you expect people who expected to be greeted with open arms to have any kind of knowledge about the place?

The only ones that are shocked are the ones that were sold on going in the first place, definately not the salemen running the show...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."