lol marc, your reply showed up before my post...Are you practicing Voodoo?



What to do? Well charity is always nice. You can donate funds or volunteer your time at a private relief organization. There are many groups that do terrific things for the people in poverty stricken countries. And because the money isn't filtered through 60 layers of government bureacracy, a lot more of every dollar gets where it is supposed to go.

Ultimately though, the real solution is probably going to be the most painful one short term...a revolution in those countries. The Berlin Wall didn't come down because some politician decided to remove it. It fell because the people of East Germany realized they were oppressed by their politicians. They were being denied their freedoms by a corrupt socialist government, and they demanded an end to it.

Really, perhaps the best thing we can "do" about it is nothing. If we continue to alleviate these symptoms of corruption, we are only prolonging the misery of the people in those countries. It may be better if they just got fed up with their circumstances and took matters into their own hands.

Viva la Revolution!



Oh, wait.....






Yeah thats it!

Last edited by Capitalizt on Apr-10-2007 at 16:52

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt lol marc, your reply showed up before my post...Are you practicing Voodoo? What to do? Well charity is always nice. You can donate funds or volunteer your time at a private relief organization. There are many groups that do terrific things for the people in poverty stricken countries. And because the money isn't filtered through 60 layers of government bureacracy, a lot more of every dollar gets where it is supposed to go.

I saw you're post first, you are the one practicing voodoo!

Anyway, the problem with charity is that many governments and/or rebels will seize any goods going to the country. This happened in Liberia, especially. Charles Taylor loved taking from the starving children. Charity needs to be given, absolutely, but it will cost more money than most are willing to pay, to protect the goods from raiders.

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I'm not too terribly surprised by this, nor do I see as incredibly outrageous given the substantial profits these oil companies are making.

But there are two things that come to mind:

1. Squirrel's right - our corporate welfare of tax breaks to these companies are a downright joke and should be removed completely.

2. Living wage - though not necessarily applicable to the oil companies, I do think it's interesting to see some corporations give a big fat "whaaa!" on it, which to me is a bit strange given their fat fucking CEO payouts. Granted, I concede living wages aren't the sure-fire answer to ending poverty, nor are they likely applicable to every/many situations. But I really do hope that giant corporations paying out oodles of bucks to their CEOs cease shedding tears if they are required to pay their workers a few more $.

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quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 2. Living wage - though not necessarily applicable to the oil companies, I do think it's interesting to see some corporations give a big fat "whaaa!" on it, which to me is a bit strange given their fat fucking CEO payouts. Granted, I concede living wages aren't the sure-fire answer to ending poverty, nor are they likely applicable to every/many situations. But I really do hope that giant corporations paying out oodles of bucks to their CEOs cease shedding tears if they are required to pay their workers a few more $.

Hyopthetically, let's look at this from a different angle. Suppose a "living wage" were implemented. I have no idea what the living wage would be. What government hack-group is going to come up with some "official" study complete with fancy actuarial tables and whatnot? Is it higher in some parts of the countries than others? How is it calculated? Regardless, I am operating on the assumption that a "living wage" would be something significantly higher than minimum wage. Anyway, I digress...

Suppose you implement a mystica "living wage." I believe that in your heart you are wanting to basically pull (I really wanted to say take) from the top and help the bottom. But what happens when the higher wage costs hit everyone at the lower and middle-end, that aren't making billions in profits annually. There are many that barely operate in the black, and many that aren't even that lucky. At the margin, how many businesses could theoretically be put out of business? How many employees might not be hired because the incremental payroll costs are somehow a deal-breaker? Not to mention the potential for more of that hated outsourcing nonsense!

More abstractly, but certainly pertinent...if you implemented some new "living wage," how much could it potentially hurt the profit margins of the weaker players? How much might their stock value go down to reflect the higher cost of business? How much wealth might be destroyed in your mission to fight poverty? Might you hurt some of the very people you are trying to help?

Here's a quick (and probably not thoroughly thought out) idea:

What about greater accessibility to warrants and options for all employees? Sure, they won't ever amass as many as the C-level folks do in their carefully constructed, golden-parachute laden, legally iron-clad contracts, but they are more likely to work harder for the company, as well as likely be more loyal (i.e. a long-term employee), if he/she has greater ownership in the company. Workers will be better motivated and will be more productive. So, at the margin, productivity goes up, turnover goes down, labor costs go down and profitability could actually go UP! Additionally, the lower employment costs will help curb inflation (at the margin). Yay capitalism!

Of course they need to be properly accounted for and issued so as not to invite fraud. A company might choose to award them based upon performance benchmarks being met, certain criteria being met, etc. In theory it could amount to something significant over time.

And the playing field could be leveled ever-so-slightly...

I'd say that's one idea that (in theory) illustrates clear benefits over a government mandated solution. One major caveat however, is that it requires a very amicable invisible hand!

See--I'm all for everybody getting a bigger piece of the pie (or at least a bigger dinner), I just don't necessarily agree with how to get there. Now...what to do about the leftover folks that wouldn't likely be eligible for something like that. I suppose you would suggest a tax or some other method of income re-distribution?


What a ramble!

Last edited by Shakka on Apr-11-2007 at 01:49

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'm not too terribly surprised by this, nor do I see as incredibly outrageous given the substantial profits these oil companies are making. But there are two things that come to mind: 1. Squirrel's right - our corporate welfare of tax breaks to these companies are a downright joke and should be removed completely. 2. Living wage - though not necessarily applicable to the oil companies, I do think it's interesting to see some corporations give a big fat "whaaa!" on it, which to me is a bit strange given their fat fucking CEO payouts. Granted, I concede living wages aren't the sure-fire answer to ending poverty, nor are they likely applicable to every/many situations. But I really do hope that giant corporations paying out oodles of bucks to their CEOs cease shedding tears if they are required to pay their workers a few more $.

If you're referring to an indexed min. wage, corporations aren't stupid.
If they feel they're aren't getting the breaks they need to compete globally (or locally for that matter); they'll move somewhere where they can and take their jobs with them.
What do we suppose the number one reason was for Haliburton to move their corporate HQ? Taxes maybe?

When Enron tanked and bequeathed upon those publicly traded companies the Sarbanes-Oxley legacy, I can tell you with certainty that they all secretly had a string of Tourettes when the ruling came down.
I know in the corporation where I work, there were major changes that had to be made.
However, it's a clear example of how businesses can regulate themselves without needing government involvement in something where they have no clue other than collecting their taxes.

Government should never be an answer to anything. It's supposed to be there to protect the businesses, not run them.

I know you disclaimered yourself MisterOpus1, but thought I'd throw my 2¢ in for those that believe that government bailouts and subsidies actually solve anything...

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I'm surprised that people think others who are successful should be punished

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree I'm surprised that people think others who are successful should be punished

Well, lets not punish them by leaving things exactly as they are right now. What will that achieve? Some of them are of course righteous, but others are living off other people's misery and suffering. Supporting dictarships by doing business with them is not helping people out. Sure it might be all fair in legal terms, but look at these people ...

I am not saying its all Americans fault in this issue as well and that we should redistribute the wealth, I never said that. I hate communism. Without getting into detail on the issue, I know some things can be done by our western society to make these people's lives better - like stop supporting the corrupt and dictatorship governments of Africa. If we do, then these governments will weaken. Instead of spreading democracy by the sword and ignoring wide-spread human rights violations and mistakes because these countries are our allies we need to start treating the humanitarian issue more seriously. Everyone can and should live happy and productive lives. There's enough food and resources for everyone on the planet to live happpy and sustainable lives.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Well, lets not punish them by leaving things exactly as they are right now. What will that achieve? Some of them are of course righteous, but others are living off other people's misery and suffering. Supporting dictarships by doing business with them is not helping people out. Sure it might be all fair in legal terms, but look at these people ... I am not saying its all Americans fault in this issue as well and that we should redistribute the wealth, I never said that. I hate communism. Without getting into detail on the issue, I know some things can be done by our western society to make these people's lives better - like stop supporting the corrupt and dictatorship governments of Africa. If we do, then these governments will weaken. Instead of spreading democracy by the sword and ignoring wide-spread human rights violations and mistakes because these countries are our allies we need to start treating the humanitarian issue more seriously. Everyone can and should live happy and productive lives. There's enough food and resources for everyone on the planet to live happpy and sustainable lives.

I hope you know how much contradictory you sound comparing this post to the stuff you wrote on the Afghanistan thread.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree I hope you know how much contradictory you sound comparing this post to the stuff you wrote on the Afghanistan thread.

Ha! How contradictory is it that Americans are supporting the current Afghani regime that is filled with former war criminals, former Taliban members and sympathizers, drug dealers? Americans have actually supported and joined with even worse groups of people before though.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Ha! How contradictory is it that Americans are supporting the current Afghani regime that is filled with former war criminals, former Taliban members and sympathizers, drug dealers? Americans have actually supported and joined with even worse groups of people before though.

My remark wasn't about the Yanks, it's about you!

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree My remark wasn't about the Yanks, it's about you!

Enlighten me then.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture