quote:

Originally posted by Spoonz Spot on.

so basically what you guys are saying is that, a deaf, blind and dumb person cannot be muslim? That person has no concept of language, so with out it, he cannot understand. Does this mean that he is not enlightend?

The only reason why I ask is due to christanity's whole deal with Soveriegn Grace... and predestination.... it basically states that a person is chosen to be saved even before they are born. "Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated, when they were still in the womb." Does Islam have that basic premise??

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX so basically what you guys are saying is that, a deaf, blind and dumb person cannot be muslim? That person has no concept of language, so with out it, he cannot understand. Does this mean that he is not enlightend? The only reason why I ask is due to christanity's whole deal with Soveriegn Grace... and predestination.... it basically states that a person is chosen to be saved even before they are born. "Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated, when they were still in the womb." Does Islam have that basic premise??

Look it's obvious there're so many western orientalists demoralize
the both "the religion" and "the culture"

Many of them know the realities and the secrets and wat's behind the meanings about any language

But they ignore bec.of mainly blind fanaticism , hostility ,jealous and many things.
And also wat's said by shaolin_Z

___________________
"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles de Gaulle

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, that not a fair assesment. The fact of the matter is that if you truly want to understand the Quran, you're going to have to learn the language it's written in, which would be Arabic. Otherwise you have to rely on translations, which are subject to the translators interpretation, linguistics skills, and biases.

That doesn't mean however that the concepts can't be taught, regardless of language.
The bible has been translated several times in many languages, and conceptually, has pretty much remained true.
Why can't this be for the Quran?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

shaolin...I'm not saying Islam is inherently evil, because I don't think it is, but even back in context, those weren't exactly the most peaceful religious passages I've ever heard.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono shaolin...I'm not saying Islam is inherently evil, because I don't think it is, but even back in context, those weren't exactly the most peaceful religious passages I've ever heard.

That's cool, I didn't take your comment that way. Well, there's a difference between being a peaceful non-agressor and being a pacifist.

EDIT: Don't forget how out of context those are, often mistranslated. Like I demonstrated with one example. You'll find infinetly more reference teaching compassion, forgiveness, and all that other stuff.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z EDIT: Don't forget how out of context those are, often mistranslated. Like I demonstrated with one example. You'll find infinetly more reference teaching compassion, forgiveness, and all that other stuff.

See you keep speaking that these are taking out of context...then you also state that one must have a great handle on Arabic Language.
But do not most Muslims, the ones that are not in the west, take these out of context just as you state that we have?? I mean does the average muslim obtain a degree in Islamic Theology??
Or just being born into islam turn on some macigal light in a person that allowa his to see past all of the so called, OUT of Context scriptures? And also, those muslims and there seems to be almost all of them that speak hate of the west and jews, use these so called, by you at least, OUT OF CONTEXT SCRIPTURES to preach thier hate to the uneducated masses.......
Perhaps the truth is , the radicals have a full grasp on what Islam really is and the so called learned muslim is just coloring the truth. Kind of like Scientology. Oh its a great thing until you start learning about the homesexula Xenu and the aliens...

Sure man, whatever you say. Yeah dude, all 114 Surahs and the millions of verses in them are just full of verses talking about murder, plunder, and pilage? There's obviously no point in me saying anything as you're automatically doing to disregard it. If you're so damn curious, why don't you pick up the copy of the Quran and read it for yourself? Or would you rather form your opinion from obvious disinfo and propaganda? Seem like the latter to me, and it also seems like you're not particualrly fond of reading. Have a nice day.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Sure man, whatever you say. Yeah dude, all 114 Surahs and the millions of verses in them are just full of verses talking about murder, plunder, and pilage?

Well those veses I quoted pretty much tend to make it look that way. Even if, as you stated, its all out of context..... but even if they are taking out context, it still doesn't remove the fact that some of your your muslim brethern apparently have done the same as well...unless you are going to sit here and tell me that Muslims do no wrong...

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There's obviously no point in me saying anything as you're automatically doing to disregard it. If you're so damn curious, why don't you pick up the copy of the Quran and read it for yourself?

Well you told me that I could never understand the Koran unless I know Arabic...

quote:

Or would you rather form your opinion from obvious disinfo and propaganda? Seem like the latter to me, and it also seems like you're not particualrly fond of reading. Have a nice day.

Well thank you for just solidfying my POV on the Muslim religion, one should just accept the Koran as the voice of God and never question it.....

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX so basically what you guys are saying is that, a deaf, blind and dumb person cannot be muslim? That person has no concept of language, so with out it, he cannot understand. Does this mean that he is not enlightend? The only reason why I ask is due to christanity's whole deal with Soveriegn Grace... and predestination.... it basically states that a person is chosen to be saved even before they are born. "Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated, when they were still in the womb." Does Islam have that basic premise??

that's spot on...and can be proven scientifically.

i'm not saying what ShaolinZ is incorrect but LazFX's rebuttal to that proves something else about Islam. subjigation.

i'm totally not down with that.

i dont think islam is necessarily more guilty than christianity when it comes to blood-thirsty holy text. the text isn't the problem imo. religion itself, and its lack of evolution to modernise its archaic writings is the problem. but of course, you cant modernise a holy book can you?

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Originally posted by LazFX Well those veses I quoted pretty much tend to make it look that way. Even if, as you stated, its all out of context..... but even if they are taking out context, it still doesn't remove the fact that some of your your muslim brethern apparently have done the same as well...unless you are going to sit here and tell me that Muslims do no wrong...

I said no such thing you idiot, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't have the double digit jock IQ that you do. So I don't prescribe to your dualistic framework of "my team" v.s "their team." Grow up. It's kinda sad having to say that to a 'grown' man well in his thirties.

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Originally posted by LazFX Well you told me that I could never understand the Koran unless I know Arabic...

Apparently you don't understand English. That is NOT what I said, I said if you want to "truly understand the..."

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Originally posted by LazFX Well thank you for just solidfying my POV on the Muslim religion, one should just accept the Koran as the voice of God and never question it.....

LOL, what? Again, I said no such thing neigther did I imply it. How can you have faith in something, believing that something is the truth, with out questioning it and being critical?

Listen man, if you want to be a narrow minded ignorant prick, be my guest. Just don't expect me to respond to your BS propaganda posts.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller