cweb... u just don't get do u!?
haven't u read what tranzformer wrote!?
i want to see exactly your reaction when someone will bomb himself near u or near your friends or family...
i bet u on anything in the wrold that u would be pissed as hell!!!! and u'd want revenge!!!!!!
this is our revenge
do u know what it's like to lose more than 100 innocent people in less than a month!?!? well i do and that's why i agree with everything Sharon does... and don't blame him and say he's shit and stuff cause i think he is too kind with those ******s... we gave them to choose between the easy way and the hard way... easy way of peace or hard way of war.... they chose the war and now they have to suffer the consequences!!!!

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thats what I call one-sided comments! You just see your victims. There was a statistic some weeks ago which show me that over a certain period like 100 israelis where killed, on the other side thousands of Palastinians. And dont tell me every pali who got killed was a terrorist.

now I can understand that the people who live through this desaster day by the day are pissed (the palestinians are pissed as well, can you imagine?) and want to revenge. But now its time some real leader step up and do whats the best for the folk and thats certainly not blow a whole village. then a pali get pissed and blow himself up, then sharon reacts, then a hamas-idiot then sharon again....sometimes its over and just about 1 person lives ther, do you want that? Because of the history of this conflict I think its absolutely neede that a strange force come in there and put this mess to a rest. There will be no peace there until a UN or US or whatelse troup goes there. And its absolutely needed that a pali state, who is FREE not controlled by Israel, is installed. So Israel can make hard frontiers. Its very hard to fight a enemy who lives INSIDE your country you know. And the problem is that this suicide-bombing-tactic is very effective because its very hard to find the terrorist out of the normal civilizians because they are dressed the same. And do you want to make a Genocid because you want to find and punish every terrorist? I hope not...

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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer I stand behind Israel 100%, and I know many other Americans do also. The problem witht the Palastinians is that they believe and think that they can blow up innocent civilians without bearing the costs of their actions.

Speculation set forth as universal fact.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer The key word is INNOCENT. When was the last time you heard of an Israeli going to a Palastinian shopping mall and mowing down 100's of innocent shoppers with machine gun fire?

I seem to remember some Israeli going bezerk in a mosque some years ago. Shooting the worshippers.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer When was the last time that you heard of an Israeli blowing himself up in a Palastinian elementary school? Israeli's don't do shit like that becuase they realize how cruel and immoral such actions are.

You're affirming the consequent. There could be other reasons why the Israeli do not blow themselves up as suicide bombers (e.g. having an army that attends to their interests).

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer If you are willing to send out suicide bombers, then be ready to defend yourself when you find yourself in a shit hole. When that happens don't start crying about how unfair it is.

But it's not Palestenians that keeps complaining about "how unfair" things is. Actually I don't think we have a single Palestenian as a member here at TA.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer "For avery action there is equal reaction." So when the Arabs try to screw around with the Israeli's, the Israel's have all the right to defend themselves, and take all necessary steps to protect them in the future. Every other nation would do the exact same thing. Lets say a group of of Colombian suicide bombers were hired by the governement to go and blow themselves up in the major cities of Brazil. If something like that happend, it would be a sign of war. No civilized nation would ever turn their back on such a action and let it pass without some sort of punishment or response.

False analogy. Columbia is a sovereign state and so is Brazil. Palestine is not. Furthermore Brazil is not currently occupying the entire Columbia.

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Originally posted by tranzformer So all in all, go Israel, and if you need help killing those animals give me a call and I'll come packing with my Uzi. That's just my 2 cents. L8er Oh yeah, the other thing that I forgot to mention is that Israel pretty much has the whole world agaisnt it, except for its best friend the U.S. Osama (kiss my ass) bin Laden and other leaders of terrorist groups like Hamas, vow that they wont give up untill the Jews are thrown out of the Middle East and are determinated from the world.

You're generalizing from leaders of muslim terrorist groups to the entire world population bar the U.S. and Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer So, if Israel justs sits back and folds its hands, guess who's going to be incharge of that area? The Arabs. So really this is a fight for the survival of the Israeli state which was created by the UN.

Jumping the gun again on the consequences of sitting back there.

Additionally, I'll have to inform you that the occupied territories were never part of the land U.N. gave to the Jews. On the contrary U.N.-resolutions have ordered Israel to withdraw from these areas - something Israel to this day have refused to do entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by tranzformer Because of this, I think that having tanks rollin' through the streets is fine (eventhough they aren't mine), as long as they don't start targeting innocent people and using innocent people who just want peace as collateral. Peace

You're entitled to your opinion tranzformer, but your argument is severely flawed. It's OK to support one party 100%, but you really shouldn't interfere (joining with a Uzi you said) in a conflict which you clearly have not examined in depth.

I propose you continue this discussion in the older "we're going into war" thread and have this one closed..

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

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Originally posted by cweb Oh heaven forbid! those poorly israelis.... hundreds of Palestinians are killed and no one gives a rat ass about it, then some soldiers die and there's almost a moment of silence startet. Oh I forgot, the Palis are the BAAAAD and the Israelis are like angels, sorry...

Or you can look at it a different way. Every time an Israeli soldier raises a gun in the direction of a refugee camp it's all over the papers. But Palestinians get away with pretty much whatever they want in the world press. Oh wait except for the suicide bombings where they kill their own folks. The number of which counts in the ratio of deaths in the Middle East. Blah, this shit is stupid. Sharon fucked up and Bush helped 'im out. Fack 'em all, stupid bastards just keep the hate going in circles over there. What's going to happen if or when Palestinians take their "country" back? Where are they gonna look next? What's gonna happen to the Jews who live there now? Figure Palestinians are gonna stay their hands or will there be another attempt at genocide? There is no right or wrong out there, just who can spin a better story. Again, Blah

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"12:45 restate my assumptions
1: Mathematics is the language of nature" Pi

quote:

Originally posted by cweb But now its time some real leader step up and do whats the best for the folk and thats certainly not blow a whole village. then a pali get pissed and blow himself up, then sharon reacts, then a hamas-idiot then sharon again....sometimes its over and just about 1 person lives ther, do you want that? ...

You're right there, both sides need leaders to step forward and work this shit out w/o death destaruction, and all that other fun video game shit. Pease

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"12:45 restate my assumptions
1: Mathematics is the language of nature" Pi

This fight isn't going to be won over this message board guys. I understand the angst behind both sides.

The palistinians have had their land taken. That isn't disputed one bit. What once was theirs, was given away, albiet by the UN. What do you think would happen if the UN gifted detriot to canada. Then canada decided to move the people of detriot out, and told them to go elsewhere, because the land is needed for canadians. Those people from detriot would get pissed, some would resort to violence. The sons and daughters of those who were killed would have a vandetta, and the hate would spread.

The current Isrealis are in a tough situation. They had nothing to do with the land, or the formation of isreal. Much the same as people living in the USA had nothing to do with abusing slaves, or natives. Isreal can't just give back the land, just as the USA can't give the land back to the natives who own all north america. The palistnians attack isreal, and rightfully, isreal fights back.

I really do feel for both sides. I think the palistnians had the winning case 50years ago, that was their land. Though I believe by this campaign of terror they villify themselves in the world spotlight. By killing woman and childern they become the badguys. I know that's the reason I believe Isreal is in the right now. I think if all the fighting were to stop, and talks were to start, that might change. I realize that Isreal will never give all the land back, but I think some of it could be. Both sides need to compromise, and I think that's the problem. Isreal doesn't want to lose control, or give the terrorists a haven from with to attack within. The palastinians don't want isrealis living on any of their land. They don't want to be living under the isreali government.

Like I said before, it's really not an arguement that can be won or lost. I know I'll probably get flamed, everything I've said will be picked appart, and taken out of context. I suppose that's what I welcome when I post my opinions on an open forum. That's probably why it's so hard to even get these guys to talk.



ps: hell-copter; why do you have an apache helicopter as your icon thing? Why not a nice isreali cobra? you guys don't have apaches.

(=

As I said before there need to be two free States with hard frontieres. But Im glad that most people here realise that there are two sides and not just one.

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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

I believe the Palestinians deserve their own state. SO does every Israeli/Jew I've met.
The only thing is that every cease-fire to be broken was done so by Palestinians.
Most civilised countries do not negotiate with terrorists or meet their demands - this would obviously send out the message that these tactics are effective and the next day there would be even more terrorists making more demands.
Israel has made some very generous offers to Palestine. Most notably the one made by Barack [sp?]at the last camp david summit with Clinton - when over 90% of the land that the Palestinians wanted was offered... this offer was so generous that Barack payed for it dearly at the next election. Arafats reply: "he can go to hell!". The Palestinian side has never shown any hint of trying to be reasonable, or being satisfied with anything less than the obliteration of Israel as an independant state. I have no doubt that should Israel revert to its pre-1967 borders, the suicide bombings would not ease up.
Israel has tried to negotiate - stating that negotiations would proceed when Arafat did something about the terrorists -quite reasonably, IMO. But Arafat either supports the actions too much or cares about his popularity too much, so nothing was done, the suicide-bombings continued. I am not sure about the claims that Arafat funded some of the terrorist organisations/acts (although I wouldn't be surprised) but I am sure that he knew the identities of many of the active members, and did nothing when asked. Arafat is in the best position to take care of Palestinian terrorist groups, but he does nothing, so Israel is forced to retaliate using methods that carry with them more collateral damage than would have occurred had the matter been handled internally (by Palestinian authorities). After a long period of displaying what in my opinion was a very reserved attitude towards Palestine, in the face of ongoing terror, the people have become sick of it and have voted in Sharon in the hope that a change of tactic will bring home the message that Israel will not submit to the pressure of terrorism.
And to those who instantly accuse anyone siding with Israel of being naive or getting all their information from the media - ask yourselves how wide your research of the matter has been and where you get the information on which you base your opinions. I don't know about other countries, but the Australian media seems, if anything, to favour the Palestinian cause.

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Actually I don't think we have a single Palestenian as a member here at TA.

lol

you know why that is? that is because Israël has trashed all the infrastructure in the Palestinian territory, roads are trashed, telephone lines (internet) is trashed.....everything

just throw a nuke on both countries and it will be over....lol

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Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

The more I read these boards the more disappointed I become in the Europeans and their frightening lack of understanding of the issues involved.

The point I want to make is that Arafat is behind the numerous terrorist attacks that have convulsed Israel for the last several months, and there have been documents found that link Arafat to the terrorist organizations like the Martyrs Brigade. Now my question is: Does it make any sense to negotiate with a terrorist knee-deep in blood?

You'll probably tell me "Hey, Sharon is the same way, also knee-deep in blood." But let me tell you something else: Sharon came to power not so long ago; there have been numerous leaders before, who were much more lenient than him, and yet the Palestinians refused to compromise. The reason why Sharon came to power in the first place, is because the Israelis were outraged that their outstretched hand of peace only resulted in more violence from the other side. Think about this...

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