quote:

Originally posted by venomX In any case, just wanted to say that if anyone is truly interested in sound theories of addiction there time is better spent reading other things.

Apparently you still fail to comprehend his argument. His is not about addiction nor are they necessarily 'sound theories,' they are subjective and written based on a sophisticated, worldly-wise life, spanning many decades. Perhaps once you are half of the age during which Tolstoy had written this, you may change some of your views. Then again, maybe not.

Oh, and I guess you ought to be the to judge how other people's time should be spent and advise them on what they shouldn't read. Give me a fucking break and stop being so opinionated.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I see somebody has ingested a bit too much wordy literature. One ought to avoid such intoxicants.

Lame. Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.

Tolstoy was all about telling people what to do, at least in the righteousness-crusade stage that was the end of his life.

I think I'll listen to you. You must be on to something.

Cool! I have a disciple.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Right. There is so much hokum and claptrap in your words, Psy-T, that I feel hardpressed to enumerate them. While at times your posts are at least specious, what you write here is unequivocal, unfounded horseshit that galls me to the core, if for no other reason than because you cannot see for yourself how ignorant and provincial your points of view are.

by all means then, argue my points, show the hokum of my words.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred If you get inebriated by alcohol, you might enjoy it as well? But of fuckin' course you will! Who says you wouldn't?? You started doing things for the first time because of curiosity? Very well, I suppose the 2nd, 3rd, and 59th time was due to an irrepressible curiosity as well?!

tolstoy asks "why do you do ____, and why did you start doing it?", i answer in the appropriate form (...i smoke because 1, 2 & 3. i started smoking because 4 & 5...). to assault my format is indignant, especially when the attacker is defending the exactly corresponding format at the same time, on the other hand, to assault my words without realizing the above is just sad.

beyond this, the actual point of starting my post with those words was to show how his generalizations don't hold up in the real world without a few 'healthy' stretches of the literal meaning.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred "which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" I won't bother to even answer the question.

why?

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred "again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." (Insert random answer here.)

[insert random indignant grunt here.]

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred I won't even bother with the other ones. While I may not necessarily agree with everything Tolstoy propounds, far be it from me to make such dumbfounded, presumptuous retorts!

you haven't actually bothered with any of them.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T by all means then, argue my points, show the hokum of my words.

I did briefly, I'll continue to do so.

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tolstoy asks "why do you do ____, and why did you start doing it?", i answer in the appropriate form (...i smoke because 1, 2 & 3. i started smoking because 4 & 5...). to assault my format is indignant, especially when the attacker is defending the exactly corresponding format at the same time, on the other hand, to assault my words without realizing the above is just sad.

Tolstoy has already answered for you, nor does he ask you, for it is a rhetorical question. You answer is tantamount to his, namely: “Oh, I like it...it cheers me up.”

Here's another answer of his: 'To while away time, to cheer oneself up; everybody does it.' But it might be excusable to twiddle one's thumbs, to whistle, to hum tunes, to play a fife or to do something of that sort 'to while away the time,' 'to cheer oneself up,' or 'because everybody does it' — that is to say, it might be excusable to do something which does not involve wasting Nature's wealth, or spending what has cost great labor to produce, or doing what brings evident harm to oneself and to others."

Moreover, your answer was limited to the fact that you find it pleasant, and due to your curiosity. Nobody asks why you did it the first time, but why you do it in general.

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beyond this, the actual point of starting my post with those words was to show how his generalizations don't hold up in the real world without a few 'healthy' stretches of the literal meaning.

Maybe you should think twice and read the article again. Or, spare yourself the trouble, for I'll give just one example: "In war, soldiers are usually intoxicated before a hand-to-hand fight. All the French soldiers in the assaults on Sevastopol were drunk.

When a fortified place has been captured but the soldiers do not sack it and slay the defenseless old men and children, orders are often given to make them drunk and then they do what is expected of them." I suppose you'll attribute that to your so-called 'healthy stretch of the literal meaning?'

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you haven't actually bothered with any of them.

Well, if I must.

"which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky.

"again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky. I suppose you'll find some way in which this is inimical not only to one's self, but to others as well.

If you insist on continuing, I don't mind, but I'm going to visit my mom now and will be online again in an hour or two.

Last edited by AlphaStarred on May-12-2007 at 23:21

What is "Nature's wealth?"

Disturbed is a horrible horrible band

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Tolstoy has already answered for you, nor does he ask you, for it is a rhetorical question. You answer is tantamount to his, namely: “Oh, I like it...it cheers me up.”

tostoy's answer is unsatisfactory, and if it is in truth a rhetorical question (i granted him the benefit of the doubt), it is a fallacious one.

there's a world of difference between theese two answers:

1. why do you listen to music? because i like it, and
   
2. why do you listen to music? because i like the soundsd it uses, the things those sounds remind me of; the structures utilized, the similiarity between the structures in music and the ones seen and heard in nature; the novelty of it...

and while we're on the subject of "liking" things, it's a shame you didn't indulge my idea of pleasure being the highest driving force, seeing as the main excuse tolstoy uses to go off on his search for driving forces is his lack of respect for the 'mearly' pleasant.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Here's another answer of his: 'To while away time, to cheer oneself up; everybody does it.' But it might be excusable to twiddle one's thumbs, to whistle, to hum tunes, to play a fife or to do something of that sort 'to while away the time,' 'to cheer oneself up,' or 'because everybody does it' — that is to say, it might be excusable to do something which does not involve wasting Nature's wealth, or spending what has cost great labor to produce, or doing what brings evident harm to oneself and to others."

...all of which have been discussed in my original post.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Maybe you should think twice and read the article again. Or, spare yourself the trouble, for I'll give just one example: "In war, soldiers are usually intoxicated before a hand-to-hand fight. All the French soldiers in the assaults on Sevastopol were drunk. When a fortified place has been captured but the soldiers do not sack it and slay the defenseless old men and children, orders are often given to make them drunk and then they do what is expected of them." I suppose you'll attribute that to your so-called 'healthy stretch of the literal meaning?'

nope, however i would note the post hoc ergo propter hoc observations don't do much to help us in this argument.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Well, if I must. "which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky.

stop wasting the air, the land you're sitting on, and your thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred "again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky. I suppose you'll find some way in which this is inimical not only to one's self, but others as well.

and you suppose correctly
you are almost undoutedly sitting on 'corpses' of various organisms you've killed, most of which are vital to your health.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred If you insist on continuing, I don't mind, but I'm going to visit my mom now and will be online again in an hour or two.

and i'm practicing capoeira kicks in the nude - that won't stop me from arguing though

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What is "Nature's wealth?"

everything positive natures offers...
what is positive?
that which is beneficial...
what's beneficial?
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shemales

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Dear Psy-T

Arbiter is no where to be found, I hope you can find a place in your heart to accept me as your proxy mentor in this time of dire need!


While I do not believe that AlphaStarred has the highest ground (i.e. the perspective which sees the greater truth amongst those being proffered here), in order to begin illuminating that fact I think you must start by acknowledging that there is a correlation between alcohol consumption and bad behaviour amongst some members of the general public.

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