quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you are banging pots and pans. thats all. don't flatter your "rabid" self. i care very little about the anti-war left only to point out their tantrums.

Yes, I can see how banning the press from doing their jobs at explosions, Iraq refusing to release death tolls for the first time, and this Administration deliberately leaving out car bombs and other explosives out of their violence gage somehow looks like a tantrum from the "rabid-left" to a "rabid" Bush-supporter like yourself.

Sorry, what were you saying about propaganda again? Could you try and be serious for one moment and define how holding the press out, refusing to give out death numbers for the first time in this war, and the Administration refusing to include car bombs and other explosive devices in their measure of violence, is NOT propaganda?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yes, I can see how banning the press from doing their jobs at explosions, Iraq refusing to release death tolls for the first time, and this Administration deliberately leaving out car bombs and other explosives out of their violence gage somehow looks like a tantrum from the "rabid-left" to a "rabid" Bush-supporter like yourself. Sorry, what were you saying about propaganda again? Could you try and be serious for one moment and define how holding the press out, refusing to give out death numbers for the first time in this war, and the Administration refusing to include car bombs and other explosive devices in their measure of violence, is NOT propaganda?

i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple.

i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think.

if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple. i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think. if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

Yes this concerted effort by the left to bang "pots and pans" is seriously undermining and underreporting all the superb accomplishments and positive achievements that are being done in Iraq! Like after 4 years we have ALL kinds of statistics that demonstrate how we're SUCCEEDING in a clusterfuck that even administratrion officials are too afraid to defend! The irony of this "myopia" is rich indeed.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple.

Ahh, I see. So you acknowledge this as propaganda, uhh, "good" propaganda I guess, since it has a benefit of "solving the greater problem". So how is propaganda of any sort solving a greater problem, especially in lieu of keeping the reality of events on the ground from the public eye, as well as lying about violence and withholding death numbers?

Please explain in detail how that is "solving the greater problem," especially since things have gone so swimmingly for our Administration over the past 4 years in Iraq.

quote:

i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think. if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

Well I guess I just got tired of clapping louder for one failed neocon strategy and prediction after another over there. I think it's only fair to ask you the same question that I keep asking (and have not received a response) my dear friend Latin:

quote:

Given the fact that hardly any predictions made by this Administration and its supporters have come to fruition about this war in Iraq, why the fuck do you think you have an ounce of credibility to make any predictions about the situation in the future? Given your support to the group that's been wrong on almost all accounts with this war, what on earth should compel anyone to start believing your predictions now?

Do try and keep your own personal snipes in perspective. As Occ mentioned, your continual pointing of fingers at the "rabid-left" (i.e. majority of Americans and most of the world) is a pitiful excuse for the obvious failures of this Administration's policies in Iraq.

And one last question for you, you stated:

quote:

have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good

What exactly is the "greater good" that you're fighting here? This is running dangerously close to the "win" and "success" rhetoric this Administration utilizes with no definition of those words that can be quantitatively measured. So how do you define "to do the best of our abilities" in order to "uphold the greater good?" What is the "greater good" to you? How will it be obtained? You do realize what kind of government we are fighting for there, right? You do understand that the likelihood of a civil war stopping for your neocon utopian "democracy thru force" is next to nill, and has never had a chance in hell, right?

How do you or this Administration plan on creating such a utopian heaven there? What is "win"? What is "victory" to you and Cheney? Start defining your rhetoric along with this Administration's so we can understand just what the hell our obtainable goals are there for once.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Damn MisterOpus, you bitch so much. Shit man dont get to emotional, its ok you know

Let me continue educating you for a bit... This I havent said, but IMO we didnt go to Iraq for the WMD. IMO this is a strategic war for the US to have a grip in the ME because before the 9/11 basically we had no kind of influence in the region. We didnt go there for the fucking oil or w.e have you... I mean its so funny that people all over the world says we are there for the oil. But who where the ones bitching and wanting to have a piece of Iraqi oil when the US successfully invaded Iraq? :cough: Russia and France

Back to my point... IMO this is a good strategy for the US, all we are facing is some minor complications that can be solved. It saddens me that our politicians are the ones dividing us. Why dont we have a national debate and let Americans know what a withdrawal mean for us? Because you know that Americans will change their mind and disregard that notion ofwithdrawal.

Misteropus stop bitching already because Im sick and tired of it. Stop trying to write the history of Iraq and how we have failed cause you dont know shit about. Just keep echoing w.e your politicians tell you.

And you are so childish in calling neocons to all those people that criticize the Dems. As I said when you show intelligence ill debate you more seriously. Right now you are not even worthy the time to google my shit up and present the "evidence" you want. Im getting to the point that i feel tired in responding to you so im going to leave this post as it is now cause i dont want to keep typing anymore to stupid shit

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover Damn MisterOpus, you bitch so much. Shit man dont get to emotional, its ok you know

Uhh, ok. Perhaps you can point out in this thread where you see emotional outbreaks on my part?

quote:

Let me continue educating you for a bit...

Is that what you call it?

quote:

This I havent said, but IMO we didnt go to Iraq for the WMD. IMO this is a strategic war for the US to have a grip in the ME because before the 9/11 basically we had no kind of influence in the region.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that Captain Obvious. But that essentially entails a deliberate obfuscation by this Administration in an attempt to sell their plans of invasion to the rest of the public based primarily on two premises:

1. WMDs
2. al Qaeda connections

These were the primary rationales for invasion. There's no need for any historical revisionism here. This is what we were sold on. This is what I personally was sold on and originally supported. Of course I know now and have known for years that they had ulterior motives like the ones you just mentioned, but like the rest of the country, I really don't appreciate being told false or unsupported rationales for an invasion, as well as a complete clusterfuck debacle that we're in now.

Do you?

quote:

We didnt go there for the fucking oil or w.e have you... I mean its so funny that people all over the world says we are there for the oil. But who where the ones bitching and wanting to have a piece of Iraqi oil when the US successfully invaded Iraq? :cough: Russia and France

When have I ever brought this up as a rationale? Could you please try to focus a bit better on the topic and points of discussion at hand?

quote:

Back to my point...

I think it's more than fair to say you never had one, or at least you never explained one very well so far.

quote:

IMO this is a good strategy for the US, all we are facing is some minor complications that can be solved.

So this current situation of being bogged down in a civil war, fighting for a fundamentalist regime in leagues with Iran, with no obtainable goals or measurable benchmarks, no quantifiable definitions of "success" or "victory", while 3400 of our troops are dead, over 26,000 wounded, and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis are just a "minor" complication to you that can be solved?

Okay, how? What strategery have you seen thus far leads YOU to believe this can be "solved"? And please define "solved" while you're at it, thanks.

quote:

It saddens me that our politicians are the ones dividing us. Why dont we have a national debate and let Americans know what a withdrawal mean for us? Because you know that Americans will change their mind and disregard that notion ofwithdrawal.

We HAVE these debates, my dear twit, every freakin' day. A national debate occurs every day in Congress, on the radio, in the backyard with your neighbor, in my clinical rotations in Physical Therapy with veterans that have chosen private practice instead of military care, you name it. Where the hell have you been?

Did it ever occur to you that Americans, the broad majority of them have thoroughly considered this already, and decided based on those decisions? Stop blaming your political ghosts and the Democrats for all things going wrong with this war.

Is it really that difficult to point the finger at the failed policies in the first place, rather than bitching and moaning about everyone else?

quote:

Misteropus stop bitching already because Im sick and tired of it.

You poor, wretched soul. You could just enlist and join the cause you so deeply support rather than argue with no substance with me on the Internets, if you really wanted to.

Or are you even of age yet?

quote:

Stop trying to write the history of Iraq and how we have failed cause you dont know shit about. Just keep echoing w.e your politicians tell you.

I'm really having a difficult time trying to follow your grammar. What's "w.e?" What's "ME?"

Regardless, who's writing history here? Are you having difficulty accepting the fact that your little utopian war hasn't gone as swimmingly as you hoped it to be?

Well perhaps you should stop whining like a little recalcitrant child and start demonstrating otherwise with a coherent argument. How has Iraq gone in your favor so far?

quote:

And you are so childish in calling neocons to all those people that criticize the Dems.

When it comes to this Iraq War, the broad majority of those critical
of the Dems (and the majority Americans, and the majority of the world, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Iraq Study Group) tend to fall in line with the neocon philosophy. That's pretty simple.

quote:

As I said when you show intelligence ill debate you more seriously.

Ahh, so you were just showing me your jocular side of debating skills up to this point? Well hot dog! I can't wait to see your serious side. I quiver with fright and anticipation.......

quote:

Right now you are not even worthy the time to google my shit up and present the "evidence" you want.

Quit wasting my time. Start supporting your arguments or troll some other forum. If you fail to support yourself here in this debate forum, you're nothing but a waste of time to me and everyone else. Kindly move on if this is the case.

quote:

Im getting to the point that i feel tired in responding to you so im going to leave this post as it is now cause i dont want to keep typing anymore to stupid shit

Then kindly leave, sir. You continue to debate with absolutely no integrity to support yourself or address the points I have made to you to which I have supported myself with evidence.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? It's real simple:

1. You make an argument
2. You support that argument with evidence to back it up
3. I counter your argument
4. I support my arguments with evidence to back me up.

What the fuck is so difficult with step #2 for you? It's really incomprehensible that you continually dodge and weave from that very simple point. You have not debated with any integrity and intellectual honesty of any sort. Quit wasting my fucking time here.

So again I'll ask you the question that you have continually dodged up to this point:

quote:

Given the fact that hardly any predictions made by this Administration and its supporters have come to fruition about this war in Iraq, why the fuck do you think you have an ounce of credibility to make any predictions about the situation in the future? Given your support to the group that's been wrong on almost all accounts with this war, what on earth should compel anyone to start believing your predictions now? And lastly, again I wonder, do you think it's okay for Bush to call for a timetable of withdrawal against Clinton back in 1999?

Quit wasting my time, debate with intellectual honesty and answer the fucking question posed DIRECTLY to you, sir.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

i think its about time lira said goodbye to latin lover.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think its about time lira said goodbye to latin lover.

Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

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Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

Not really, Opus usually pounds him into mush.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

Agreed. If anything I hope he would begin to understand how to support his argument a bit better when he creates one. It might be futile, but I'll hope nonetheless.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

Who says I have debated MisterOpus?

As I mentioned, Ill debate MisterOpus when he shows more intelligence in the topics he wants to debate. But at no instance I have tried to DEBATE him. All I have done is stated my opinions/analysis. As I mentioned in other posts engaging in a debate with the kind of this "neocon" mentality he carries is going backwards instead of going forward.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.