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AlphaStarred
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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY

quote:
Originally posted by chach
your not cool unless your atheist


lol

what if you're a hippy who doesn't give a flying fecal freak?

Old Post May-19-2007 07:15  Israel
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Floorfiller
Girl + Sweater = Hotness



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Illegal Pete's

why is it any surprise that if we have higher reproductive rates that religions would also grow respectively.

honestly i think it's telling that the growth rates aren't higher...

we have approx 6.5 billion people with an annual growth rate around 1.14 %

seems like really everything is pretty comparable as it is...

Old Post May-19-2007 07:15 
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R!CH
check signal



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: potrero hill

food for thought.....

quote:

" Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. "
- Seneca, Greek philosopher, writer, politician

" Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. "
- Denis Diderot, French philosopher, author, encyclopedist (1713-1784)

" The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma. "
- Abraham Lincoln, lawyer, emancipator, 16th president

" Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. "
- Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America, 3rd president, inventor, polymath, author Declaration of Independence

" Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. "
- Thomas Jefferson, to James Smith, 1822

" I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


" I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world. "
- Thomas Jefferson

" I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies. "
- Benjamin Franklin, founding father of America, author, inventor

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. "
- Benjamin Franklin

" During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution. "
- James Madison, founding father of America, 4th president, political theorist

" What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. "
- James Madison

" Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. "
- James Madison

" This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. "
- John Adams, founding father of America, 2nd president, federalist

" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. "
- John Adams

" I do not believe in the creed of the Roman Church, in the Protestant Church, the Greek Church, or the Turkish Church. My own mind is my church. "
- Thomas Paine, deist, author "Common Sense"

" Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. "
- Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason

" All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. "
- Thomas Paine

" I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life – our desire to go on living … our dread of coming to an end. "
- Thomas Edison, American inventor (1847-1931)

" When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myth, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bards, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll, agnostic, humanist, freethinker (1833-1899)

" With soap, baptism is a good thing. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" Hands that help are far better then lips that pray. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" Environment is a sculptor -- a painter. If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: 'There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.' If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana. As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own? "
- Robert G. Ingersoll

" Whatever good you would do out of fear of punishment, or hope of reward hereafter, the Atheist would do simply because it is good; and being so, he would receive the far surer and more certain reward, springing from well-doing, which would constitute his pleasure, and promote his happiness. "
- Ernestine L. Rose, abolitionist, atheist, freethinker, 1878

" The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by "God" one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a god. This god is emotionally unsatisfying...It does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. "
- Carl Sagan, astronomer, astrobiologist

" It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. "
- Carl Sagan

" Science arouses a soaring sense of wonder. But so does pseudoscience. Sparse and poor popularizations of science abandon ecological niches that pseudoscience promptly fills. If it were widely understood that claims to knowledge require adequate evidence before they can be accepted, there would be no room for pseudoscience...

All over the world there are enormous numbers of smart, even gifted, people who harbor a passion for science. But that passion is unrequited. Surveys suggest that some 95% of Americans are 'scientifically illiterate.' That's... the same fraction... of slaves who were illiterate before the Civil War. "

- Carl Sagan

" Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense. "
- Carl Sagan

" Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings, will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries. "
- Carl Sagan

" I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "
- Albert Einstein, theoretical physicist

" It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere...Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. "
- Albert Einstein

" I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own-a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble minds harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature. "
- Albert Einstein

" I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. "
- Albert Einstein

" I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch. "
- Dr. James Watson, American biologist, dDiscoverer of DNA

" It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science. "
- Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist

" Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered. "
- Stephen Jay Gould, paleontologist, evolutionary biologist, scientific historian

" Scientific education and religious education are incompatible. The clergy have ceased to interfere with education at the advanced state, but they still control that of the children. This means that children will have to learn about Adam and Noah instead of about evolution, about David killing Goliath instead of Koch killing cholera, about Christ's ascent into heaven instead of Montgolfier's and Wright's. Worse than that they are taught that it is a virtue to accept statements without adequate evidence, which leaves them prey to quacks of every kind and makes it difficult for them to accept the methods of thought that are successful in science. "
- JB Haldane, geneticist

" Anxieties about ourselves endure. If our proper study is indeed the study of humankind, then it has seemed-and still seems-to many that the study is dangerous. Perhaps we shall find out that we were not what we took ourselves to be. But if the historical development of science has indeed sometimes pricked our vanity, it has not plunged us into an abyss of immorality. Arguably, it has liberated us from misconceptions, and thereby aided us in our moral progress.

The theory of evolution explains to us what our ancestry has been. It does not explain away our worth. Why should we be afraid to learn more about what we are? "

- Philip Kitcher, scientific philosopher

" Blind faith, no matter how passionately expressed, will not suffice. Science for its part will test relentlessly every assumption about the human condition. "
- Edward O. Wilson, humanist, biologist, naturalist, researcher

" If history and science have taught us anything, it is that passion and desire are not the same as truth. The human mind evolved to believe in the gods. It did not evolve to believe in biology. Acceptance of the supernatural conveyed a great advantage throughout prehistory, when the brain was evolving. Thus it is in sharp contrast to biology, which was developed as a product of the modern age and is not underwritten by genetic algorithms. The uncomfortable truth is that the two beliefs are not factually compatible. As a result those who hunger for both intellectual and religious truth will never acquire both in full measure. "
- Edward O. Wilson

" The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. "
- Sigmund Freud, Austrian physician, psychoanalyst

" I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. "
- Stephen Henry Roberts, historian, professor emeritus Univ. of Sydney

" I believe that relgion is the belief in future life and in God. I don’t believe in either. I don’t believe in God as I don’t believe in Mother Goose. "
- Clarence Darrow, civil libertarian, lawyer, agnostic

" I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure. "
- Clarence Darrow

" The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. "
- George Bernard Shaw, English playwright

" I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time. "
- Isaac Asimov, professor of biochemistry, science/science fiction writer

" Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. "
- Isaac Asimov

" I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain. "
- Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek

" We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes. "
- Gene Roddenberry

" I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life. "
- Andrew Carnegie, American industrialist, philanthropist

" All thinking men are atheists. "
- Ernest Hemingway, American writer, journalist

" If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian. "
- Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American writer, satirist, lecturer

" Man is a marvelous curiosity... he thinks he is the Creator's pet... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. "
- Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"

" Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which one has no sensory evidence or rational proof. A mystic is a man who treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of feeling with knowledge. "
- Ayn Rand, American writer, philosopher, playwright

" When I think of all the harm the Bible has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. "
- Oscar Wilde, Irish playwright, novelist, poet

" 'A philosopher,' said the theologian, 'is like a blind man looking in a dark room for a black cat which isn't there.'

'Yes,' replied the philosopher, 'and if I were a theologian, I'd find the cat!' "

- Aldous Huxley, British writer, humanist

" You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough. "
- Aldous Huxley

" It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. "
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Scottish writer, author Sherlock Holmes

" All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fear, fraud, greed, imagination and poetry. "
- Edgar Allen Poe, American writer, poet

" By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God. "
- Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist

" Religion prevents our children from having a rational education; religion prevents us from removing the fundamental causes of war; religion prevents us from teaching the ethic of scientific cooperation in place of the old fierce doctrines of sin and punishment. It is possible that mankind is on the threshold of a golden age; but, if so, it will be necessary first to slay the dragon that guards the door, and this dragon is religion. "
- Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, writer, mathmetician, ethicist, logicist

" Religion is based mainly on fear... fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand... My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. "
- Bertrand Russell

" I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. "
- Bertrand Russell

" I am myself a dissenter from all known religions, and I hope that every kind of religious belief will die out. "
- Bertrand Russell

" It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. "
- Gloria Steinam

" Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken, American editor, critic

" For centuries, theologians have attempted to explain the unknowable in terms of the-not-worth-knowing. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken

" The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken

" Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken

" God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken

" Since the early days, [the church] has thrown itself violently against every effort to liberate the body and mind of man. It has been, at all times and everywhere, the habitual and incorrigible defender of bad governments, bad laws, bad social theories, bad institutions. It was, for centuries, an apologist for slavery, as it was an apologist for the divine right of kings. "
- Henry Louis "H.L." Mencken

" I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. "
- Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect

" The death of dogma is the birth of reason. "
- Immanuel Kant, German philosopher

" There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention. "
- Helen Keller, American lecturer

" I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there. "
- Robert Frost, American poet

" Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me. "
- Robert Frost

" I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way. "
- Robert Frost

" I was born a heretic. I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows. "
- Susan B. Anthony, American suffragist

" By simple common sense I don't believe in God, in none. "
- Charlie Chaplin, British actor, director, producer

" I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create. "
- Vincent Van Gogh, Dutch painter

" God is a concept by which we measure our pain. "
- John Lennon, American musician

" I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. There’s no blood of any sacred martyr on my hands. I pass on all of this. "
- Billy Joel, American musician

" I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off. "
- Billy Joel

" If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working. "
- Frank Zappa, American musician

" Faith means not wanting to know what is true. "
- Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher, philologist

" The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation. "
- Friedrich Nietzsche

" All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race – before it had learned the obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications. "
- Friedrich Nietzsche

" The bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire...Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up. "
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, American suffragist (1815-1902)

" Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror. "
- Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", writer, playwright (1694-1778)

" Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world. "
- Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire"

" Superstition, born of paganism and adopted by Judaism, invested the Christian Church from earliest times. All the fathers of the Church, without exception, believed in the power of magic. The Church always condemned magic, but she always believed in it: she did not excommunicate sorcerers as madmen who were mistaken, but as men who were really in communication with the devil. "
- Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire"

" If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. "
- Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire"

" Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. "
- Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire"

" Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. "
- Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

" Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. "
- Napoleon Bonaparte

" A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider godfearing and pious. On the other hand they do less easily move against him believing that he has the gods on his side. "
- Aristotle, Greek philosopher, early scientist

  • Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.

  • Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

  • Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

  • Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
  • - Epicurus, Greek philosopher, circa 300 BCE

    " What would be the use of immortality to a person who cannot use well a half hour? "
    - Ralph Waldo Emerson, poet, American philosopher, transcendentalist

    " All religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because he has an ego and cannot accept it, he has had to externalize it into some great spiritual device which he calls "god."

    God can do all the things man is forbidden to do, such as kill people, perform miracles to gratify his will, control without any apparent responsibility, etc. If man needs such a god and recognizes that god, then he is worshiping an entity that a human being invented. Therefore, HE IS WORSHIPING BY PROXY THE MAN THAT INVENTED GOD. Is it not more sensible to worship a god that he, himself, has created in accordance with his own emotional needs - one that best represents the very carnal and physical being that has the idea-power to invent a god in the first place? "

    - Anton Szandor LaVey, wrtier, occultist, founder Church of Satan

    " Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. "
    - L. Ron Hubbard, pulp writer, self-proclaimed demigod, founder of The Church of Scientology, millionaire

    " Man creates God, then gets on his knees and worships his invention. "
    - Karl Marx, Prussian philosopher, political economist, founder Marxism

    " The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people. "
    - Karl Marx

    " The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice, self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the qualities of the canaille. "
    - Karl Marx

    " The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press--in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past few years. "
    - Adolph Hitler, The Speeches of Adolph Hitler 1922-1939, Vol. 1

    " Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction, consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith. We need believing people. "
    - Adolph Hitler

    " Belief is harder to shake than knowledge. "
    - Adolf Hitler

    " The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force. "
    - Adolf Hitler

    " The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. "
    - Adolf Hitler

    " The main doctrine of a fanatic's creed is that his enemies are enemies of God. "
    - Andrew White

    " In the affairs of this world, men are saved, not by faith but the lack of it. "
    - Benjamin Franklin


    ___________________

    Last edited by R!CH on May-19-2007 at 09:00

    Old Post May-19-2007 08:46  United States
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    eRRaTiK
    g0t milk?



    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Toronto, Canada

    " Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give. "

    - Robert G. Ingersoll

    ...

    I like that. So true.


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    Old Post May-19-2007 09:25  Australia
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    Zharen
    Put down the plate



    Registered: Mar 2003
    Location: On a spit of sand we call Earth

    I must say, if Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and James Madison all decried an existence of a God, then it must be that this nation wasn't founded on Christianity. I only point this out, because I'm so sick of Christian fanatics telling me that this nation was built on Christianity and must remain a Christian nation. Based on those quotes above, clearly, it isn't.

    Old Post May-19-2007 10:25  United States
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    jdat
    Jay Van Dat



    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: I dont even know

    quote:
    Originally posted by Xenocreator_PG_
    Humans beings need to evolve past religion, give up the fairy tale that god exists & expand their minds. As I stated in the other thread: Religion is anti-progression. Religion is a worthless consumer of brain resources. Those that believe in creationism have weak undeveloped minds. The development of their brains has been stumped with early homo sapien beliefs & they can not handle modern day information (like basic science). Some cultures have not even evolved too much in the way of being empathetic to other human beings (Eg: Islamic Stoning). Without morals, ethics & empathy they are just animals.



    To ignore religion as a power for good is to deny the forward progress it has brought.

    While there are many examples which could show otherwise, if it was not for moral thought and change brought on by the church our modern world as we view it would not exist. Democracy etc.

    Old Post May-19-2007 10:31 
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    eckmek
    Supreme tranceaddict



    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: Denmark

    quote:
    Originally posted by Zharen
    I must say, if Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and James Madison all decried an existence of a God, then it must be that this nation wasn't founded on Christianity. I only point this out, because I'm so sick of Christian fanatics telling me that this nation was built on Christianity and must remain a Christian nation. Based on those quotes above, clearly, it isn't.


    But one can't deny the impact it had that some of the first to settle in the "New World" were christian puritanists (i don't know if this is the word in english), that wished for freedom to exercise their religion.


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    quote:
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    Old Post May-19-2007 10:42  Denmark
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    eRRaTiK
    g0t milk?



    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Toronto, Canada

    quote:
    Originally posted by eckmek
    that wished for freedom to exercise their religion.


    Interesting then that their are followers of religions that wish to exercise that freedom at the cost of other peoples' freedom.


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    Old Post May-19-2007 11:31  Australia
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    Taranis
    Supreme tranceaddict



    Registered: Jan 2007
    Location: Adelaide, Australia

    quote:
    "All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."

    No. Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.

    "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
    Yes. As practice. You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.

    "So we can believe the big ones?"

    Yes. Justice. Mercy. Duty. That sort of thing.

    "They're not the same at all!"

    Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through with the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet you act as if there were some sort of rightness in the universe by which it may be judged.

    "Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point—"

    My point exactly.


    I've quoted this on this board somewhere before I think, but it's a quote I find pretty meaningful in regards to the place of religion in the modern world.

    A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion.

    How many of those bad things would have been done in the name of something else anyway? How many of those wars where 'really' motivated by religion, and how many where motivated by greed or hatred or political maneuvering or what have you, with religion used as a cover and as a tool to stir up the people? What better way to give people a reason to 'want' to kill your enemies than tell them that hey, they're God's enemies too, and he'll show his appreciation with a cool afterlife and large quantities of scantily clad virgins if you happen to die.

    How many good things has religion done? All the material things, charity, aid-work, whatever. Culturally, art work and writings and inspiring people and so on.

    The non-material ones, that are a bit harder to measure. Giving people hope, giving people meaning in a life where it otherwise doesn't exist. Giving people a reason to be kind to their fellow man, to love thy neighbor as they love their brother, to turn the other cheek, and so forth.

    Sure, it's all very well to say that maybe morals exist because they benefit a primarily social race, after developing during their tribal period, but try tell that to the average person on the street when they ask 'exactly why is it I can't kill and rape and steal?'

    Sure, you can sit there and talk about how you don't 'need' to believe in fairytales and how illogical religion is and how you're smart and enlightened and don't feel the need to be told how to live your life in a meaningful manner by a 4000 year old book. Enjoy the moral and intellectual satisfaction all you want, but thats no reason to go pissing in the cheerio's of people who 'do' gain comfort and meaning from these things.

    In the end, people will believe in 'something,' because for the vast majority, they need to. It might as well be organized religion instead of going off and forming a million different sects and cults and doing all sorts of crazy shit. Sure there are some bad and crazy beliefs in some religions, but they can be dealt with by those who's job it is to deal with them. Going around talking down to religious people and forcing your non-belief on them (as much as any door to door preacher) doesn't do anything except promote hostility and irritate people.

    People need to stop acting like they're doing religious people a favour by shoving atheism down their throats. Let them have their fun, let people believe what they want to believe, when it steps out of bounds 'then' step in, as necessary, through whichever means are most prudent.

    Maybe God does exist. Maybe God doesn't. Maybe it doesn't matter, because people will believe he does regardless, and that's the next best thing either way.

    Old Post May-19-2007 13:27  Australia
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    Lebezniatnikov
    Stupidity Annoys Me



    Registered: Feb 2004
    Location: DC

    quote:
    Originally posted by Zharen
    I must say, if Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and James Madison all decried an existence of a God, then it must be that this nation wasn't founded on Christianity. I only point this out, because I'm so sick of Christian fanatics telling me that this nation was built on Christianity and must remain a Christian nation. Based on those quotes above, clearly, it isn't.



    Well, this wasn't necessarily where I envisioned this thread going, but here goes.

    The Founding Fathers weren't devoutly religious, as such, but they did have a basic understanding of faith and the relevance it had in the vox populi at the time. Puritanism dominated northern society, and the influence of the Puritan work ethic (deeply rooted in virtuous living under Protestant doctrine) and the idea of society being a light in the darkness were evident in the Constitution and Declaration. As Jon Meacham, editor of Newsweek writes,

    quote:
    As it was in the beginning, so it has been since: an American acknowledgment of God in the public sphere, with men of good will struggling to be reverent yet tolerant and ecumenical. That the Founding Fathers debated whether to open the American saga with prayer is wonderfully fitting, for their conflicts are our conflicts, their dilemmas our dilemmas. Largely faithful, they knew religious wars had long been a destructive force in the lives of nations, and they had no wish to repeat the mistakes of the world they were rebelling against. And yet they bowed their heads.


    Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12115700/site/newsweek/

    Read that whole article. Whether you're an agnostic or a Christian, Meacham raises some really interesting points about the nation's beginning.


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    Old Post May-19-2007 13:34  United Nations
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    Lebezniatnikov
    Stupidity Annoys Me



    Registered: Feb 2004
    Location: DC

    quote:
    Originally posted by Taranis



    I agree with where you end up, but I disagree with your premise. Justice and compassion are not the sole products of religion, and never should be. Social justice is derived from the common interests of society, not a common faith. In fact, John Rawls goes so far as to say that social justice is actually derived from individual self-interest, arguing that since one's place in the future is not ensured, one will likely create a society that benefits even the least well-off, under the possibility that one day the least well-off might be oneself. European social states (like Denmark or Sweden) operate largely under that principle, and you could hardly say that religion is the dominant discourse used to justify social spending there.


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    Old Post May-19-2007 13:39  United Nations
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    Taranis
    Supreme tranceaddict



    Registered: Jan 2007
    Location: Adelaide, Australia

    quote:
    I agree with where you end up, but I disagree with your premise. Justice and compassion are not the sole products of religion, and never should be. Social justice is derived from the common interests of society, not a common faith. In fact, John Rawls goes so far as to say that social justice is actually derived from individual self-interest, arguing that since one's place in the future is not ensured, one will likely create a society that benefits even the least well-off, under the possibility that one day the least well-off might be oneself. European social states (like Denmark or Sweden) operate largely under that principle, and you could hardly say that religion is the dominant discourse used to justify social spending there.


    I'm not saying that religion is the source of these moral qualities, but it does, I feel, play a huge role in enforcing and maintaining their position in society. A huge number of the moral guidelines people in western civilization follow are based on judeo-christian values. Even for the most adamant disbeliever, they are passed down in one manner or another.

    Old Post May-19-2007 13:47  Australia
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