quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid ^And whose fault will that be? The med schools that reject more than half of all the applicants, but still allow the children of doctors to attend med-school even if they are not qualified?

Huh? Actually the majority of those turned down who are qualified are done so because spots are reserved for minority students. I could post some statistics that would speak for themselves, if you'd like. I was actually told, to my face, by one medical school who rejected me, "with these scores, it's a shame you're white." I'll let you derive your own meaning from that, and yes, I'm still shocked that was said out loud.

The problem is multi-faceted, not some nepotistic conspiracy. First, you have a decrease in overall applicants. The pros of becoming a doctor are increasingly being outweighed by the cons. Second, medical schools are limited in the amount of students they can enroll and new medical schools hardly ever appear. Third, we have a growing, aging population that demands more and more health care hours. Lastly, many physicians become "burned out" and retire early or go into teaching or other fields.

Shakka...yes it is the quality/affordability/accessibility triangle. Limited resources mean you can have two of the properties at the expense of the third. You can try your hardest to limit the effects of not having the third (which I argue is the government's only job in health care), but it will always be a problem.

What do I think needs to be done?

1. Reduce government regulation. As I've already said, more people in the health care industry work with paper than with patients. Half of the money we spend on health care goes to people who never see a patient. I think this is one of the greatest areas where money can be saved, simply by having the government stay the hell out of the way.

2. Allow doctors to dictate patient care, not the government, fear of litigation or insurance companies. Millions of patients receive care which does not meet the standards the doctor wishes, because an insurance company representative denies it, or their government health care plan (medicare/medicaid) will not pay for it. At the same time, billions of dollars are wasted by doctors who perform unnecessary tests and procedures because the fear of being sued demands it. If you come into the ER with simple indigestion, and even if the doctor is sure that's all it is, you'll also be checked for an ulcer, hiatal hernia, esophageal/gastric cancer, appendicitis, cardiac issues and that's just to name a few. A fifty dollar visit soon turns into a five-thousand dollar visit.

2b. Get rid of EMTALA. This goes along with allowing doctors to dictate patient care. Currently, if you go to an emergency room, you have to be seen. If you're a drug seeker and this is your 10th visit this week, you'll be seen. If you've had one bout of diarrhea, you'll be seen. If you fell and scraped your knee, you'll be seen. All of these cases have no need to be seen in an emergency room, yet they will be. A triage nurse/doctor can't simply say, "you have no business being here, go home and see your family doctor or go to a clinic."

3. Make the government responsible for protecting subscribers from health care fraud. This is by far the biggest headache for both insurance subscribers and for health care providers. Don't let insurance companies decide "on the fly" what they will and will not pay for. Heck, make health insurance companies non-profit only, if you have to. The government cannot manage the health care of all 300 million of its citizens, but it may be able to oversee the actions of a few hundred (or less) insurance providers.

4. If you want a universal health care system fine, but only have it for those who cannot afford traditional care. If you make over a certain amount of money, be required to have insurance, either by putting the responsibility on the individual or the employer. The fastest growing population of the uninsured, now rivaling those who cannot pay for it, are those who could afford health insurance, but simply choose not to have it. If you're making 60,000+ a year, you have no business bitching about not having health insurance simply because you'd rather spend your money on something else. We require drivers to have car insurance, why can't we require those who can afford it to have health insurance?

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I know my position is obvious, but if he's going after insurance company and political corruption, I'm all for it. If he's going after doctors and health care providers, I'll be a bit upset. Trust me, I hear everyday how "doctors must be making a killing with these hospital bills." Trust me, they're not. In fact the income of physicians has not risen (in relation to inflation), but has decreased over the last 25 years. Physicians have their method of care dictated by and their income reduced via the afore mentioned insurance companies and politicians, yet because they are the "face" of medicine get the blame for high costs. In 20 years when we're in the midst of a physician shortage of epidemic proportions, it'll be interesting to see how people view doctors when they won't even be able to see one.

Agreed.

I've been told that the cost of the malpractice insurance alone is also driving them into the ground...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

I just did a term paper on Castro and the Cuban healthcare system. It's really interesting stuff. I live 5 miles from the greatest medical center in the world, and I can still see flaws with how Americans approach healthcare. Ghandi said that a civilization should be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable populations. Without quality universal healthcare and education, any state has room to improve.

___________________

quote:

Moore Receives Cheers at Cannes, Boos From Canadian Crtics Michael Moore received a standing -- and sustained -- ovation following the screening of his latest documentary, Sicko, at the Cannes Film Festival Saturday. But some critics suggested that in censuring the U.S. health system, Moore was overly generous in his praise of other countries'. At a news conference, Canadian journalists harangued Moore for, as Toronto Star film critic Peter Howell wrote, making "it seem as if Canada's socialized medicine is flawless and that Canadians are satisfied with the status quo." Apparently taken aback by the assault from the Canadian journalists, Moore said, "You Canadians! You used to be so funny! ... You gave us all our best comedians. When did you turn so dark?" Later, he suggested that the U.S. ought to adopt the best parts of other countries' health systems. "We should steal from them," he said.

already the fat man is sticking his foot in his mouth.....SOURCE

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Shakka...yes it is the quality/affordability/accessibility triangle. Limited resources mean you can have two of the properties at the expense of the third. You can try your hardest to limit the effects of not having the third (which I argue is the government's only job in health care), but it will always be a problem. What do I think needs to be done? 1. Reduce government regulation. As I've already said, more people in the health care industry work with paper than with patients. Half of the money we spend on health care goes to people who never see a patient. I think this is one of the greatest areas where money can be saved, simply by having the government stay the hell out of the way. 2. Allow doctors to dictate patient care, not the government, fear of litigation or insurance companies. Millions of patients receive care which does not meet the standards the doctor wishes, because an insurance company representative denies it, or their government health care plan (medicare/medicaid) will not pay for it. At the same time, billions of dollars are wasted by doctors who perform unnecessary tests and procedures because the fear of being sued demands it. If you come into the ER with simple indigestion, and even if the doctor is sure that's all it is, you'll also be checked for an ulcer, hiatal hernia, esophageal/gastric cancer, appendicitis, cardiac issues and that's just to name a few. A fifty dollar visit soon turns into a five-thousand dollar visit. 2b. Get rid of EMTALA. This goes along with allowing doctors to dictate patient care. Currently, if you go to an emergency room, you have to be seen. If you're a drug seeker and this is your 10th visit this week, you'll be seen. If you've had one bout of diarrhea, you'll be seen. If you fell and scraped your knee, you'll be seen. All of these cases have no need to be seen in an emergency room, yet they will be. A triage nurse/doctor can't simply say, "you have no business being here, go home and see your family doctor or go to a clinic." 3. Make the government responsible for protecting subscribers from health care fraud. This is by far the biggest headache for both insurance subscribers and for health care providers. Don't let insurance companies decide "on the fly" what they will and will not pay for. Heck, make health insurance companies non-profit only, if you have to. The government cannot manage the health care of all 300 million of its citizens, but it may be able to oversee the actions of a few hundred (or less) insurance providers. 4. If you want a universal health care system fine, but only have it for those who cannot afford traditional care. If you make over a certain amount of money, be required to have insurance, either by putting the responsibility on the individual or the employer. The fastest growing population of the uninsured, now rivaling those who cannot pay for it, are those who could afford health insurance, but simply choose not to have it. If you're making 60,000+ a year, you have no business bitching about not having health insurance simply because you'd rather spend your money on something else. We require drivers to have car insurance, why can't we require those who can afford it to have health insurance?

Nice post.

neo post the source please?

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid neo post the source please?

You could probably get the info from lots of places, but here's one.

source

A few excerpts...

quote:

Researchers found that black and Hispanic students who were admitted to the five medical schools had on average significantly lower undergraduate grades and Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores than white and Asian students who were granted admittance. At each of the universities included in the study, the median grade point average for blacks was consistently lower than that for whites, and in some cases the discrepancy was extreme. For example, at Michigan State University's College of Medicine in 1999, the median grade point average (GPA) for white admittees was 3.61, nearly an A-, while the median GPA for black admittees was 2.93, slightly below a B. Furthermore, the median MCAT score for blacks admitted to Michigan State that year was 29 (out of a possible 51 points) compared to 36 for whites. Discriminatory admissions practices were also clearly in evidence with regard to Hispanic applicants, who, at four of the five schools, were admitted with lower scores than whites, though the differential in grades and scores between whites and Hispanics was less than that between whites and blacks. These differences in admissions rates mirror the racial disparities in accomplishment on the first stage of the medical licensing exam. Scores from Michigan State averaged over a three year period show that 14% of black students failed the Step 1 of the exam, and 10% failed to take it, while among white students the failure rate was only 1% and the untested rate, 4%. Thus cumulatively, 24% of black medical students at Michigan State failed to complete the first stage of obtaining a medical license compared to only 5% of white students. Among Hispanics the combined rate was 8% and among Asians, 2%.

Here's more along what I've said...

source

quote:

Combining MCAT and GPA data, researchers Lerner and Nagai found that, in 1999, 19 Asians, 2 Hispanics, and 36 whites were rejected despite having higher scores for both than the median black admittee. These 57 students would have made up a significant chunk of the 262-member entering class.

Last edited by NeoPhono on May-24-2007 at 01:06

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX already the fat man is sticking his foot in his mouth.....SOURCE

Let it be known that, while we do enjoy our health coverage for the most part, it definitely is NOT without it's flaws and a source of constant debate.

Having said that, we do have it good when it comes to having a choice of either using the provided government care, or funds pending, going to a private clinic if we choose.

The government doesn't like saying we have a two tier system, or heavens even suggesting it, but in reality, we do.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

@ Neo

Don't you think more doctos(of any field) should once that they retire go to school and become teachers? Wouldn't that help fix the problem. More teachers=more students

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid @ Neo Don't you think more doctos(of any field) should once that they retire go to school and become teachers? Wouldn't that help fix the problem. More teachers=more students

You can't mandate something like that! Talk about taking away personal freedoms. Shit, let a person retire if they want. Maybe that shit flies in Venezuela, but then again their infrastructure is shit.