quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle I believe that people love classical music not only for the beautiful composition of it but also for the story/emotion that it can convey. Now I know that "To each his own" but is trance music not yet at the stage of complexity to be able to do that?

dude..ur going to get flamed for that statement above...let me quikly save u....get my top trak of all time in my sig..

PUTS HIS FLAME RETARDANT SUIT ON!

Gosh....can't you ppl ever have a discussion without flaming others. Ok, i think all genres of music have emotions to them, it just depends on the person who makes it and the person who listens to it. I listen to classical, trance and many other forms of music and i think both are emotional. You just need to wake up all of you and you are the flaming for no reasons.....so wake up and behave and discuss this in a normal matter and you may acutally something.

I don't think there's any flaming going on at all, in fact I was quite enjoying the discussion. Flaming is where people start launching personal attacks on each other, not where they disagree about something.

Anyway, I'm probably not really qualified to enter this discussion properly, but I'll chuck my hat into the ring anyway. I'm nowhere near as knowledgable about music as Ray_Finkle (intereseting name PS), but I did music theory for three years at high school, and have played - for varying amounts of time, and never for very long - 4 musical instruments in my life-time (errr..... if you include the recorder as a musical instrument ) so I'd like to think I know a little bit about music.

To try and compare trance music to classical is a bit silly really: they are completely different forms of music, and even if they do share some rather superficial similarities - the "epic" sound for instance - they have entirely different histories, and are produced and conceived in entirely different ways. To compose classical music requires more than just a degree in music theory 101 and a tune in your head, it requires a degree of skill - a degree of creativity - that you don't find in any other form of music. You can't just sit down and write a symphony (unless your name is Mozart), it requires insane amounts of planning, being able to get several types of instruments to sound "good" together - so that they're all in sync, all aiming for the same "feel" in the context of the entire piece yet each bringing something individual and unique to it - and so on. It can take months to write a symphony, and several months more to make sure the orchestra can play it properly (or even more in the case of the two bands I played with ).

Trance music, however, is acheivable without any real musical knowledge at all (though it helps admittedly). Knowledge of equipment, knowledge of club music trends as a whole and a tune in your head is usually enough to produce a trance tune. Now obviously I've never produced any electronic music before, but I know enough about it to understand that this is how it works. How many times have you heard electronica artists talking about going into a studio to produce "something" without having any real ideas as to what? And, conversely, how many time have you heard about an electronica artsist going into the studio with pages of sheet music ready to produce a piece they've already conceived fairly exactly on a piece of paper? Think about it.

Now don't get me wrong. I love trance music (or progressive music these days actually) but for completely different reasons. Electronic music touches me like no other form of music, classical included. However, I'm realistic enough to be aware that classical music - and many other forms of "live" music - are more complex, and perhaps more musically valuable (if you wish to extend the point that far) than most forms of electronic music. I'm saying this with 3 years of theoretical music knowlegde (music theory at school) and a total of 6 years practical knowledge (4 years choir, 2 years orchestra - yep, I'm cool - not to mention the instruments I have played that don't count towards either of these things), so I'd like to think I have some idea about what I'm talking about.

Electronic music is fantastic - I wouldn't be here right now if I didn't think so - and I listen to it almost exclusively these days - but it's a bit naive to compare it to classical music in any way, shape or form. Without wishing to sound pretentious, there is an inherent brilliance in classical music, where you can appreciate a piece and be in complete awe of its composition and the way it's being played without even liking it: understanding it is almost as much fun as enjoying it. The same can't really be said of electronic music.

Anyway, take from this post what you will. Just don't bother flaming me unless you have some valid points to get across.

trance cant compare to classical music. because its simply a 21st century piggyback off it. its amazing and all, but nowhere as deep.
if you cant play classical music or have never studied it, you're not qualified to deny this.

___________________
what trainspotters are.

I agree completely with Patticus's statement above. My theory is that trance in this stage, is like an infant stage of classical music. It displays some characteristics of classical music but it's not yet at the stage where it can be as complex as classical music. Classical music deals with themes, and structure and different harmonies. Trance does that to an extent. Trance deals with emotions, and themes, and melodies....but all to a lesser degree than classical music.
I say the natural evolution of trance is for it to start behaving more and more like classical music.

However, trance music can never be like classical music because of the main idea behind the two. trance aims to get people dancing and moving around and enjoying themselves throughout the hours of the night. As of right now, classical music is for people who love the structure and composition of a 2 hour piece of music.

Don't get me wrong. I actually love trance just as much as classical i'm merely saying you can't compare the two.

___________________
"Laces out Dan!"-Ray Finkle

Well heres my take...

I believe that classical is a much more 'mathematical' genre of music. Composers write each piece using struture that allows each instrument's piece to fit into the whole. I find this downright amazing; the fact that these guys could write a handful of full-length parts to make an entire 'song' boggles my mind.

Trance is similar in that there are many parts to a song, but the songs arent as long and IMO not as complicated. Some good songs (yes, greece2000,)are very complex, but I still think that each part is not as extensive and inclusive as a part in a classical piece.

I love trance more than classical, im not taking sides, dont flame me pls. Just my opinions.

BTW, Ray, can you post a list of really good classix?? I'm sure you know a few Fugues... Hook me up!

Thanks

-Marc

___________________

no obstacles between my heart and my words; my lips, the great liaison to my soul.

Vivaldi - four seasons
any of Beethoven's amazing symphonies (5 and 9 are perhaps the most famous)
Handel's "messiah" -truely a masterpeice but is I beleive an oratorio (a tuned down version of an opera)
Mozart-This guy is a genius. Check out his song Requiem or hell, just rent the movie "Amadeus"
This is a good list. It is some of the more popular works but unlike trance where popular=cheese, popular classical tracks are an indication of its brilliance.

___________________
"Laces out Dan!"-Ray Finkle

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle Vivaldi - four seasons any of Beethoven's amazing symphonies (5 and 9 are perhaps the most famous) Handel's "messiah" -truely a masterpeice but is I beleive an oratorio (a tuned down version of an opera) Mozart-This guy is a genius. Check out his song Requiem or hell, just rent the movie "Amadeus" This is a good list. It is some of the more popular works but unlike trance where popular=cheese, popular classical tracks are an indication of its brilliance.

that avator just cracks me up...

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec i certainly like classical musik to some extent...but its the commercial value and mainstream that propelled it to its great popularity.

No, I don't agree... under the patronage system, classical music can hardly be called mainstream.

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec JUST because a song lies in the 137 bpm and the other lies in the no beats at all...doesnt mean there isnt any comparison to be made.

Hahaha.... many classical songs are up in the 200+ bpm range. Forget about the bassdrum, there's more to music than a kick... I care about what's on top.


There are some interesting opinions in here. trance cant compare to classical music. because its simply a 21st century piggyback off it. its amazing and all, but nowhere as deep.

I was thinking (almost) the same thing recently. Classical music is simply amazing, but due to the fact that it has to get people dancing we end up with less complex, more minamilistic approaches. It's very possible that our new generation of trance will involve more complex layers of instrumentaion and brilliant developments of different themes... at least I hope so.

Classical music is the ultimate music genre...

...BUT!!!!

Trance is the ultimate EMOTION genre. Classical can nail what an emotion is like on the head, but only trance will make you feel it.

Like when I listen to classical (this is kind of rare), I feel the complexity, I feel the atmosphere it creates. But I'm not a part of it. It's like I'm watching a movie.

BUT when I listen to trance, I'm THERE. When I really get into System F - Elevate, it feels like i'm flying. (or on a roller coaster, kind of both.)

When I hear the orgasmic buildup of BT - Sunblind, I feel the sound swarm around me, and I am a part of the buildup.


Nothing in my mind will affect me so emotionally as trance.

ALTHOUGH... if some genius comparable to...say Beethoven or Mozart...were to craft a trance song with the same care as they did, I think it would rival classical music.

But with trance being limited, as producers want it spinnable with DJs, and most follow a pretty similar format, classical is much more complex.

___________________
The father made fetuses with flesh licking ladies / While you and your mother were asleep in the trailer park / Thunderous sparks from the dark of the stadiums / The music and medicine you needed for comforting / So make all your fat, fleshy fingers fingers to moving / And pluck all your silly strings and / Bend all your notes for me and / Soft silly music is meaningful, magical / The movements were beautiful / All in your ovaries / All of them milking with green fleshy flowers / While powerful pistons were sugary sweet machines, / Smelling of semen all under the garden / Was all you were needing when you still believed in me.

I think the argument by Ray is that classical music is not any more impactive on the listerner than trance as this is purely subjective. However, classical music is far more complex in theory than trance music is at the moment. This isn't saying that there is no soul, its just very few producers have a background education in music theory and thus don't apply true music structure and instead hodgepodge things together.