So Bob katz dosent know what he's talkign about then?
And why do pro studio's use treament if it dosent't matter?

quote:

Originally posted by tranceinjection So Bob katz dosent know what he's talkign about then? And why do pro studio's use treament if it dosent't matter?

Thats not what you said. You said it doesn't matter what kind of monitors you buy "because the room will always affect them". Thats just retarded. Putting rear ported monitors into the wrong type of room = fuckup. Putting monitors with too deep bass into the wrong type of room = fuckups. Accoustic treatment will only help so much dude...

Go learn about room modes.

quote:

I don't want to drop a grand on a pair that are too forgiving and have my mixes suffer as a result.

If you drop a grand and your mixes still suffer, i dont think you should blame the monitors...

mackies are not all they are cracked up to be. the 8" lack bass depth and control. and also suffer from the mid range problems larger drivers tend to suffer from. as long as your room isnt too big/small then you will not have any problems with the majority of speakers in your price range - you just need to follow advise on placement.

acoustically treating is a load of balls imo. as long as the room isnt empty or with loads of shiny surfaces/no curtains then you are fine.

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quote:

Originally posted by richg101 acoustically treating is a load of balls imo.

lol, so it looks like there is not gonna be a consensus in this topic of conversation.

it's surprising to hear you say that about the mackies... i've read that their bass response is very deep and can often put out frequencies below many other 8inchers in that class. I guess I will never know until I actually listen to them in person.


Cheers all, thanks for the comments, I will post back in this topic to let you know how my listening session goes and what monitor I will choose

___________________

Oops i produce dubstep now.

NumberNin6 / Ethereal / Orana Project / Greenlight

Wow. Like, WOW.

1. Speakers and the room are one and the same. They are both part of an accoustically coupled environment. Your room sucks, no matter what speakers you put in, it will still suck. Your speakers suck but the room is great, you'll hear how shitty the speakers are.

2. Accoutic treatment is part art, part science. What's appropriate for one room is most likely completely wrong for the next. Egg crates on the walls are in most cases pointless. Draps may be wrong too. Many of the "Studio Foam" tiles on the wall are pointless. They're simply HF Dampers and sold on the snake oil concept that they're used in thousands of studios. Yea, they are, but APPROPRIATELY with accoustic design in mind.

3. "Sound Proofing" and accoustic treament are not the same. Not even close.

4. Bass traping is key. Most audio problems are in the LF part of the spectrum, tthough there are lots of common HF problems too.

5. Uncorrelated ratios of Width height and length of your room are best. Certain mathematically unrelated ratios work better than others, Google is your friend. This helps reduce standing waves, and make the room modes more manageable. the corralry to this is.. Drum Roll..

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT ROOM.

They're all compromises in one diection or another, it's just that some compromises work better than others. Without construction you can attempt to modify room dimensions with as was sugested book cases (Also act as traps), thick (and I mean REALLY thick drape hung away from the wall (how far depends on too many factors to go into here, and each room is different.

6. Standing waves are not the be all and end all of accoustic problems, there are also model nulls, harmonic over tones, resonances (All very closely related) and uneven spectrum absorption (Bright rooms, dark rooms and just plain funky sounding rooms are usually due to this last one).

7. A room may be great if you and the speakers are in one position but utterly crap if you move even a couple of inches, or toe you speakers in by just a few degrees differently. Also what's REALLY important is an even absorption curve. Ie HF is absorbed by the room proportionally to LF. Try things out and experiment, it's important that YOU understand the strengths and weaknesses of your room.

7. Never forget to buy SOLID speaker stands, it makes a MASSIVE difference to the sound field. Budget at least 25% the cost of your speakers for appropriate stands. Really.

8. There are many free and not so free tools to help you get the best out of your purchase. I used CaraCAD when I built my room. I'm in a strange position, I have lots of bass trapping by the way my room is constructed, so I needed to add HF absorption to even things out. Ya, the Foam Eggcrate I just dissed in most cases.. This is the OPPOSITE of how most rooms are.

9. The BBC (Yes, that BBC) has a ton of white papers and documentation on how to get the most out of your room, and where ideals are.

10. One man's High end car car is another man's Ricer, it's down to what you know and how you set things up. Speakers are a major part of the equation, but DO NOT discount treatment or positioning. It's equally important. Monitor Speakers and your whole environment is one thing tht you HAVE to get absolutely right, or at least understand where it's not spot on and compensate (Tough to do). If your room and speakers lie to you you will never have your mixes translate (Sound as good as they do at home).

11. If you can hear the deficiencies in your monitors, room and mixes then it's time to upgrade. That said, spending ZERO cash and moving stuff around and LISTENING will almost certainly improve things for you by at least 20-30%. decent stands (NOT WALLMOUNTS!) will add another 10-20% clarit too, all wihout changing Monitors or any heavy construction. No kidding.

12. Finally from your list I'd pick the Adams as they're the most neutral and open of the listed speakers. They also sound different to many other speakers so you have to understand them. Dynaudio are rocking, Events are good as are SOME Tannoys, ATCs & PMCs are better than them all but out of your price range.

Bugger I had a nerve hit there. those that say you room is irrelevant have no business proffering advice. Mind you you don't know me from Adam (ouch bad pun!), so as ever take what you read on teh internetz with a grain of salt and use your ears... :-0

By the sounds of what you're saying you'll pull through though. :-)

One more thing to add...

< = STFU Diginerd>

I mix on ATC SCM-50as in a tuned room, but I EQUALLY mix on a pair of 30 year old Auratone Cubes. In mono.

They're also affectionately known as Horrortones.

The ATCs are beasts, they have no sound color or tone. None. They just are. They have an insane dynamic range and incredable depth and a clarity I've never seen matched at any price.

The problem is you can easily wind up leading yourself up the garden path on them, as they will handle things that would shred other speakers.

The Auratones are awful, and I mean awful speakers. All mid range, cheap radio sounding, tinny, and all around are about as far from Hi Fi as you can imagine.

What they have though is magic. If you can make something sound decent (In MONO!) on these shitty little speakers, invaiably it will sound awesome on "real" speakers.

So the way I work is tune EQ, Compression and all that good stuff on the ATCs, and get my levels on the Auratones.

It's strange. When I'm on the ATC's I'm playing with 0.1db differences an can hear them. With the Auratones it might be 8-10 dB swings I put in from the ATCs. When I swap back though the mix is clearer..

As ever with most things in life and music it's all about balance..

Peace..

don't look

listen

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd Wow. Like, WOW. 1. Speakers and the room are one and the same. They are both part of an accoustically coupled environment. Your room sucks, no matter what speakers you put in, it will still suck. Your speakers suck but the room is great, you'll hear how shitty the speakers are. 2. Accoutic treatment is part art, part science. What's appropriate for one room is most likely completely wrong for the next. Egg crates on the walls are in most cases pointless. Draps may be wrong too. Many of the "Studio Foam" tiles on the wall are pointless. They're simply HF Dampers and sold on the snake oil concept that they're used in thousands of studios. Yea, they are, but APPROPRIATELY with accoustic design in mind. 3. "Sound Proofing" and accoustic treament are not the same. Not even close. 4. Bass traping is key. Most audio problems are in the LF part of the spectrum, tthough there are lots of common HF problems too. 5. Uncorrelated ratios of Width height and length of your room are best. Certain mathematically unrelated ratios work better than others, Google is your friend. This helps reduce standing waves, and make the room modes more manageable. the corralry to this is.. Drum Roll.. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT ROOM. They're all compromises in one diection or another, it's just that some compromises work better than others. Without construction you can attempt to modify room dimensions with as was sugested book cases (Also act as traps), thick (and I mean REALLY thick drape hung away from the wall (how far depends on too many factors to go into here, and each room is different. 6. Standing waves are not the be all and end all of accoustic problems, there are also model nulls, harmonic over tones, resonances (All very closely related) and uneven spectrum absorption (Bright rooms, dark rooms and just plain funky sounding rooms are usually due to this last one). 7. A room may be great if you and the speakers are in one position but utterly crap if you move even a couple of inches, or toe you speakers in by just a few degrees differently. Also what's REALLY important is an even absorption curve. Ie HF is absorbed by the room proportionally to LF. Try things out and experiment, it's important that YOU understand the strengths and weaknesses of your room. 7. Never forget to buy SOLID speaker stands, it makes a MASSIVE difference to the sound field. Budget at least 25% the cost of your speakers for appropriate stands. Really. 8. There are many free and not so free tools to help you get the best out of your purchase. I used CaraCAD when I built my room. I'm in a strange position, I have lots of bass trapping by the way my room is constructed, so I needed to add HF absorption to even things out. Ya, the Foam Eggcrate I just dissed in most cases.. This is the OPPOSITE of how most rooms are. 9. The BBC (Yes, that BBC) has a ton of white papers and documentation on how to get the most out of your room, and where ideals are. 10. One man's High end car car is another man's Ricer, it's down to what you know and how you set things up. Speakers are a major part of the equation, but DO NOT discount treatment or positioning. It's equally important. Monitor Speakers and your whole environment is one thing tht you HAVE to get absolutely right, or at least understand where it's not spot on and compensate (Tough to do). If your room and speakers lie to you you will never have your mixes translate (Sound as good as they do at home). 11. If you can hear the deficiencies in your monitors, room and mixes then it's time to upgrade. That said, spending ZERO cash and moving stuff around and LISTENING will almost certainly improve things for you by at least 20-30%. decent stands (NOT WALLMOUNTS!) will add another 10-20% clarit too, all wihout changing Monitors or any heavy construction. No kidding. 12. Finally from your list I'd pick the Adams as they're the most neutral and open of the listed speakers. They also sound different to many other speakers so you have to understand them. Dynaudio are rocking, Events are good as are SOME Tannoys, ATCs & PMCs are better than them all but out of your price range. Bugger I had a nerve hit there. those that say you room is irrelevant have no business proffering advice. Mind you you don't know me from Adam (ouch bad pun!), so as ever take what you read on teh internetz with a grain of salt and use your ears... :-0 By the sounds of what you're saying you'll pull through though. :-)

What a post, much appreciated! I am surprised to hear that stands play that big of a role. I was planning on keeping the monitors on my desk (as i have a fairly wide desk and will be able to create a pretty good triangle on them). Is it the fact that they will vibrate on the desk or the chance that they will not be at earlevel? I can always elevate the monitors off of my desk or angle them can't I? (I would elevate before I angle)

___________________

Oops i produce dubstep now.

NumberNin6 / Ethereal / Orana Project / Greenlight

Let's start with speakers on the table.. By putting speakers on the table the table acts like the soundboard of a guitar resonating from the direct physical coupling with the speaker.

At other frequencies it acts as an accoustic mirror and will reflect sound waves from its surface. These will then interact and produce comb filtering and a whole host of other effects.

The underside of the table flexes too and prodces some odd effects radating between the table and the floor underneath.

In short, it's one of the worst things you can do to your sound. If you're spending $1k on a pair of speakers you owe it to yourself to set them up properly.

Back to stands.

Solid stands support the speaker in free space. This cuts out all the above effects. If the stands are very dense (Often filled with lead, sand or even concrete!) then they have a high mass and therefore a lot of inertia.

This prevents the stand from resonating in the same manner as the table. It also helps avoid them being knocked over with a speaker on top. Something that is especially important if you have kids in the house, and as in my case each speaker weighs over 50Kg and are rather expensive.

I certainly don't want them coming off the stands!

After rigidity and plain old mass you need to look at the interface between the speaker and the stand, and the stand at the floor. The traditional line of thinking is to use spikes for this purpose. This allows for the smallest area of coupling between the stand and the floor, and the stand and the speaker, as well asmaking the whole interconnected setup behave as one immovable object.

I have no qualms about using spikes into the floor, but into the speaker I personally use 3 small blobs of BluTak. Spikes going into the expensive finish on my cabinets isn't something that would make me happy. It's a compromise, but one I am happy with..

Finaly positioning of the above setup is just as vital. Another topic..

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd Finaly positioning of the above setup is just as vital. Another topic..

Which is what I was just thinking about... would I be placing the stands behind my table (because it is so wide) or is it okay to place them to the sides... wouldn't that widen the stereo effect of the sound? That's something that would really taint the sound.

As for stands, do you recommend a brand or type of stand in particular? How much should I be expecting to spend on them? 25% of my budget... so 250 bucks? That would make my compromise the quality of the monitors I would be going for... forcing me to give up on the BM5As or those Adams.


Many thanks


P.S. thought I might just throw this clip in here for fun... it's a very rough and unfinished track but it provides a good example of the kind of bass extension I'm looking for. I want to be able to clearly hear the LFs that dip down fairly low. Essential for music meant to be hear on club speakers. click here

___________________

Oops i produce dubstep now.

NumberNin6 / Ethereal / Orana Project / Greenlight