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Originally posted by NeoPhono How exactly is World Cup enthusiasm changing the world any more than someone liking a TV show?

FACT: I don't know of ANY TV SHOW IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND STOPPING A WAR FOR ITS DURATION.

There were number of occasions during which WARS were halted (at least for few days, in some parts of the world) for the duration of the World Cup championship.

FACT: Although a sad reality, none of the TV Show actors were killed for being lousy; some football players were. Which is really sad, not just because footballers are killed but because I can think of quite a few shows which actually deserve a public execution of all of its cast and staff. (American Idol, War at home, Survivor, Jerry Springer, etc. come to mind)

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What would make you happy? An entire country of 300 million constantly up in arms over every political/economic/cultural issue?

I'd take that ANY DAY over the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS COMPLACENCY THAT CORPORATIONS HAVE BRED IN THIS COUNTRY!

How do we expect to rid ourselves of this tyrany, of this MONSTER of a president, a person who essentially rendered our CONSTITUTION null and void, a person who commited and got away with crimes that most of us would have been jailed for for life, a country where (as Cindy pointed out) people care more about American Idol than how THEY ARE BEING F*CKED OUT OF THEIR FUTURE!!!!

Yes, I'd take a nation of PI$$ED off compats who are up in arms about EVERY political/economic/cultural issue that resists turning us INTO A STOCK VEAL!!!!!!!!!!

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No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

Maybe you and Bono could give some examples of when the World Cup has "stopped war." The closest thing is the Ivory Coast and that was two warlords stopping civil violence to watch their team play. It sure as heck didn't stop WWII, during which the World Cup was canceled twice. If you're hanging your hat on the Ivory Coast and the hooliganism, violence and death that also surrounds international football matches as to why being enthusiastic for soccer is somehow "important," I'm not buying it for a second. I'd argue that TV in the form of news, documentaries and insightful programming has done more to help international and domestic affairs in the form of education and exposure than World Cup matches by a long shot.

You also have to realize that until a person feels directly affected, the chance of them jumping on a bandwagon, regardless the cause is highly doubtful, and I don't care what country you're talking about. America has shown in times of war, disaster or national achievement (moon landing for example) the ability to come together and become "enthusiastic." As soon as a draft would be instated (ala Vietnam), I'm sure you'd see a lot more pissed off people "doing something about it," because you'd have a lot more affected people. Right now most feel opposed to the war, but they also realize you have a voluntary army fighting in an area that could be far worse if the military action were to simply end. You also have the realization that in the next year we'll have a presidential election that will more than likely change what is currently going on. People will continue to be far more concerned about what is going on in their house and their neighborhood than something on the other side of the globe. That's not pathetic or disgraceful, it's reality and human nature.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Maybe you and Bono could give some examples of when the World Cup has "stopped war."

Some to support your claims, some to support mine. Gotta give it to WP for being sooooo damn "in the middle":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6060201401.html

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I'd argue that TV in the form of news

Are you serious? The only news that I'd consider remotely "honest" and somewhat "unbiased" in this country would be "Daily Show" and "Colbert Report".

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... documentaries and insightful programming has done more to help international and domestic affairs in the form of education and exposure than World Cup matches by a long shot.

Really? Can you name some?

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You also have to realize that until a person feels directly affected, the chance of them jumping on a bandwagon, regardless the cause is highly doubtful, and I don't care what country you're talking about.

That's because the mentality has been developed for a long time. Starting with "borrowing" mentality - e.g. "borrow now, pay later". Hey, how would you feel if I asked you to pay over $29,000 for something you not just simply were not interested in but directly opposed of? What if I told you that not only you but your parents, siblings, relatives, neighbors, friends, etc. had to pay it? Would you say it affected you directly? Well, that's our national debt, broken down as cost per person (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/).

My immediate family's share is $290,000!!!!!!!!!!! That's almost 1/3 of $1,000,000!!!

Why should we pay that?

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America has shown in times of war, disaster or national achievement (moon landing for example) the ability to come together and become "enthusiastic."

Yeah, we were very enthusiastic after 9/11. And what did we get? Bunch of bullsh!t and president's command to "keep on shopping America!".

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As soon as a draft would be instated (ala Vietnam), I'm sure you'd see a lot more pissed off people "doing something about it," because you'd have a lot more affected people.

Oh, so it takes a draft to get our fat and lazy American a$$es out of their comfy arm chairs? So, as long as you don't really see or feel a problem - it doesn't really exist, right? Are you really that stupid and nearsighted? That's exactly the reason why we have George W in the white house right now, why we have people dying for no reason over in Iraq, why rest of the world thinks of us as arrogant, stupid a-holes.

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Right now most feel opposed to the war, but they also realize you have a voluntary army fighting in an area that could be far worse if the military action were to simply end.

...yet even greater majority should realize that this IS NOT A WAR WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIGHTING TO BEGIN WITH! I am sure that if you asked majority of Americans today a direct question such as the ones below, you'd be amazed how many would give you a true shot of reality:

a. Do you think we did a right thing by removing Saddam Hussein from power?

b. Do you think it was worth the lives and aftermath to do so?

c. Do you think America is safer with Saddam gone?

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You also have the realization that in the next year we'll have a presidential election that will more than likely change what is currently going on.

It couldn't come a day too soon and I certainly hope so - I really hope we learned our mistakes. I REALLY DO!

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People will continue to be far more concerned about what is going on in their house and their neighborhood than something on the other side of the globe. That's not pathetic or disgraceful, it's reality and human nature.

But that's what's not happening - people in US for the most part DON'T GIVE A CRAP! No one is going to miss a day from work to go and join a protest! No one is going to skip a mortgage payment because they can't pay it due to being fired from work for being out demonstrating for better part of the month or being arrested for their activities.

Keep in mind - life in the 60's wasn't about mortgage, re-financing rates on your 2nd vacation home, your credit card bills, and high gas prices for your Humvee. The society in general HAS BEEN TAKEN HOSTAGE and that's what binds us, what keeps us from acting out - PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE MORE TO LOSE THAN GAIN. And this results in complacency and FEAR OF TAKING ACTION.

That's my $0.02.

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No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

This is a bit off topic from the original post, but I'm going to continue the current line of thought and present some reasons why TV has a larger social impact (ignoring the negatives) than World Cup Soccer (also ignoring the negatives). I know the proposition seems a bit unusual, but anyway...

1. It allows people to visualize events. The old "a pictures says a thousand words." It's one thing to read about war, it's another thing to see death. It's one thing to read or hear about civil rights and inequalities, it's another thing to see those in action. TV has the ability to make events that occur on a non-local scale appear much more intimate and meaningful.

2. It presents new ideas and information. Not all TV is mindless sitcom. Even in those "mindless" sitcoms we are still exposed to new cultures and beliefs. How many whites watched The Jeffersons, The Cosby Show or even The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire and maybe got a glimpse of black culture? How many people watched the History Channel, Discovery Channel or PBS and learned something new or were able to put current events in context?

You can argue all you want about Americans watching their crap shows, but you can't throw out everything else Americans see on TV. The sheer number of hours the average American watches TV tells us that they watch more than the "fluff" shows.

The two similarities I will draw is that both are a form of distraction and can both bring about camaraderie. However, I find it much more difficult to see where World Cup Football can also be a direct vehicle in the spread of news and information and to expose individuals to emerging and divergent cultural, political and social issues.

A few examples of some of the more impacting TV shows would be; Roots, Shogun, The Cosby Show, Band of Brothers and All of the Family. Those are the purely dramatic variety, and you could also list numerous shows such as Meet the Press, 60 Minutes, etc. that also have quite an impact.

Lastly, can we stop with the "if we would have known we wouldn't have gone to war." Right now that makes absolutely no difference as to what we are trying to accomplish there now. If you have a way to go back in time and change things, great...let's do it. However, we're where we are now and our options are limited; continue trying to establish a stable region, or simply pull out and let things fall as they may. I think most Americans, knowing full well we shouldn't be there in the first place, would rather us at least attempt to leave the region with some stability in place than to simply throw our hands up in the air in defeat and allow complete chaos to ensue. I'm very much opposed to us being in Iraq, however I'm more opposed to leaving the region a complete disaster.

what did we truly expect from this woman?

or more pointedly, how much to the left do you really think this woman could have pulled this country?

...and yes this is a fundamentally right/left issue regarding her and her beliefs. and if not for the people she chose to surround herself with. (who ultimately she was disenchanted with)

how could one possibly think this wasn't going to be her ultimate public fate?

please don't give me this "well it wasn't that way back in the sixties" yes it was! this is deja vu all over again. yes, people watched TV, worried about the bills, the mortgage, the kid's schools, we lived in excess like we do today. it's all the same just different technology, but we don't seem to collectively understand that, as Americans, our core values haven't changed much at all over the decades.

for better or worse we love our children. we love our children more than we love ourselves. we do whatever it takes to provide for them and stand against anything that would threaten them even if it would cost our own life in war or peace. it makes losing one for any reason that much harder to go on not loving ourselves. and i don't think she did.

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Originally posted by emc^2 We have become a consumerist WORLD.

Couldn't agree more, although I am a consumer-whore in some respects...

When I did my degree in American Studies, every module could some how be related to consumerism and post-modernism, and I think that speaks volumes for the state of US politics.

The Founding Father's opted for an isolationist stance on the world stage, and look where that has now led. I think the idea of an America that they had, is vastly different from what it acutally is now.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

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Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ Couldn't agree more, although I am a consumer-whore in some respects... When I did my degree in American Studies, every module could some how be related to consumerism and post-modernism, and I think that speaks volumes for the state of US politics. The Founding Father's opted for an isolationist stance on the world stage, and look where that has now led. I think the idea of an America that they had, is vastly different from what it acutally is now.

America has perpetuated (and has become a hostage of) global economy model. Not to say that America has brought something new into the world in terms of international trade - but companies in US were always more aggressive about selling to anything to anyone anywhere.

America has also made a mistake of borrowing from outher countries to fight the wars and have become a hostage of international marketplace. China's control over US debt gives China the kind of leverage they couldn't even dream of even if they had ALL THE NUKES in the world.

As far as war tactics - you can't just bomb a country anymore and not expect it to backfire at you. Furthermore, starting a war is no longer an economic catalyst as it was before. It is actually harmful in number of ways (besides the obvious, with all ethical and moral issues aside). So, world has changed but mentality hasn't caught up yet.

I think that this century will be devoted to conquering and depleting world's oil supplies while the world is desparately trying to figure out an alternative fuel source before we self-implode and erradicate humankind.

But even if this issue is solved (fantacizing for a moment), it's a double-edged sword. On one side, we'd be solving number of problems: energy dependency on other countries, pollution, ecological impact.

But creating a number of other issues: mostly economical. How many countries depend on oil for their livelyhood? where entire economies exist mostly on oil? left without too many other high-ticket items to sell, those countries would be left to poverty, while richer countries become richer. This would create despair and even more friction, as the "have nots" face off with "the haves".

Either way - looks like next 2 centuries will be very "interesting" for the surviving species.

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No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

As soon as Code Pink and all the other Left-wing nut bags grappled on and started making her their muppet, any credibility she had, plummeted.

I do feel for her, but then, her son wasn't drafted either...

Come to think of it, to get on that magic bus to begin with, then suddenly decide get off and say it's everyone's fault smacks of a narcissistic mindset that has ran out of tears.

I'm glad she's deciding to focus on family but I'm afraid the damage is already done.
Oh to be a fly on the wall when she dissolved her marriage of 29years (!) only to quit a little later on anyways; was it worth it Cindy?
Financial rune and risking your health and for what?

Now I do applaud her being active in politics however the personal cost far outweighed any warped message she was baling...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."