My goodness, how'd I overlook these cute replies?:

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo those are the facts. i didn't make them up. it's just something you are gonna have to f**king deal with. sorry.

Your "facts" are unsupported. Again when the prosecution comes out in their memo to the judge and states the following statements:

quote:

"To accept the argument that Mr. Libby's prosecution is the inappropriate product of an investigation that should have been closed at an early stage, one must accept the proposition that the investigation should have been closed after at least three high-ranking government officials were identified as having disclosed to reporters classified information about covert agent Valerie Wilson, where the account of one of them was directly contradicted by other witnesses, where there was reason to believe that some of the relevant activity may have been coordinated, and where there was an indication from Mr. Libby himself that his disclosures to the press may have been personally sanctioned by the Vice President."

and

quote:

"This was particularly important in light of Mr. Libby's statement to the FBI that he may have discussed Ms. Wilson's employment with reporters at the specific direction of the Vice President."

AND

quote:

Mr. Libby learned about Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment in June 2003 directly from the Vice President, as well as from senior government officials from both the State Department (Marc Grossman) and the CIA (Bob Grenier) and Cathie Martin, who handled public affairs for the Vice President.

And those are the indisputable facts that you're gonna have to fucking deal with, sorry. This is a DIRECT indication of Cheney's involvement, which is also indisputable. Cheney could not be charge AS A DIRECT RESULT of Libby's obstruction of justice (i.e. LYING to the grand jury and the FBI), as Fitz indicates here:

quote:

"made impossible an accurate evaluation of the role that Mr. Libby and those with whom he worked played in the disclosure of information regarding Ms. Wilson's CIA employment and about the motivations for their actions."

Please demonstrate a lack of involvement by the Vice President if you will, sir. Or are you going to tell me that ridiculous fucking excuse that the #1 man to the Vice President, a noteworthy attorney in his own right somehow had a "faulty memory" (something this Administration seemingly has nonstop lately)? Because strangely, 12 of his peers thought otherwise.

quote:

ahh yes the whole if there was an investigation then Cheney, et al must be guilty of something...barf. you'd make a horrible lawyer...wait let me take that back, you'd be a horrible juror

And you make a wonderful partisan hack in your own right. Again, given the known facts of the case, please demonstrate the lack of Cheney's involvement with the known statements above.

quote:

to end, Libby's defence brief submitted to Judge Walton contesting Fitzgerald's assertion about someone LIBBY WAS NEVER ACCUSED OF OUTING

Jesus, Q., you're not gonna roll out that bullshit line by his defense team AGAIN, are you?

Pertaining to his first two paragraphs on her covert status at the CIA, which is dealt DIRECTLY by the CIA release by Fitzgerald. Let's review that document:

quote:

On 1 January, 2002 Valerie Wilson was working for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) as an operations officer in the Directorate of Operations (DO). She was assigned to the Counterproliferation Division (CPD) at CIA Headquarters, where she served as chief of a CPD component with responsibility for weapons proliferation issues related to Iraq. While assigned to CPD, Ms. Wilson engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries. When travelling overseas, Ms. Wilson always travelled under a cover identity--sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias--but always using cover--whether official or non-official cover (NOC)--with no ostensible relationship to the CIA. At the time of the initial unauthorized disclosure in the media of Ms. Wilson's employment relationship with the CIA on 14 July 2003, Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for whom the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/s...employement.pdf

So there we have both the arguments that she was both covert and NOC by none other than the CIA itself. But if we're going to parse words on the status and definition of "covert" in accordance to the IIPA, let's do so (again):

quote:

(4) The term “covert agent” means: (A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency— (i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or (B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and— (i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or (ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or (C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/...26----000-.html

Criterion A is met considering she is a member of the CIA, her member status was classified:

quote:

A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials. ...The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5072002517.html

and why the CIA sent a letter to the DOJ on July 30th, 2003 stating:

quote:

the CIA reported to the Criminal Division of DoJ a possible violation of criminal law concerning the unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

Now pertaining to section ii, not only do we have Plame's own testimony UNDER OATH, not only do we have the CIA memo pertaining to her employment status over the last 5 years, not only did we have fellow co-workers at the CIA such as CIA colleagues Jim Marcinkowski, Michael Grimaldi, Brent Cavan, and LC Johnson testify UNDER OATH on her status, not only do we have a Republican appointed prosecutor Fitzgerald stating as such, but we also have the Bush-appointed CIA director agreeing to the following statement in full:

quote:

Ms. Wilson served at various times overseas for the CIA. Without discussing the specifics of Ms. Wilson's classified work, it is accurate to say that she worked on the prevention of the development and use of weapons of mass destruction against the United States.

It was clear that she "serving" outside the U.S. on these points, and she does not have to have permanent status outside which pertains to point B in the IIPA statute because you notice a little word separating point A and point B? Here it is, just for you wingers:

or

Strange, ain't it? In layman's terms, that means you can have either A OR B. Funny how that works.

The sad part that you dance around horribly is that if Plame WAS NOT a covert employee for the CIA then Libby wouldn't have had to lie to the FBI agents because there wouldn't have been a fucking investigation in the first place! Oh, wait, that's right, he had a "faulty memory." Darn my own memory for forgetting that one.

But if we are to go with Libby's story about her status, that would entail the following people or entities are LYING:

1. the CIA to the DOJ
2. George Tenet
3. Michael Hayden
4. Jim Marcinkowski (under oath)
5. Michael Grimaldi (under oath)
6. Brent Cavan (under oath)
7. LC Johnson (under oath)
8. Fitzgerald (under oath)
9. Valerie Plame (under oath)

Also keep in mind that Ashcroft launched an investigation, then recused himself from that investigation because he knew right off the bat that it was nothing but a partisan lie about Plame's covert status.

So all these folks were lying, because Libby was all along telling the truth, despite the fact that Libby is a convicted felon because of lying on 3 counts. You bet, Q., I'm with ya.

But as you point out, this is somewhat irrelevant considering this was not the charge Fitz was after, although it is relevant pertaining to the seriousness of this case that Fitz is demonstrating in his memo and why Libby's obstruction is so damaging since his lies "made impossible an accurate evaluation of the role that Mr. Libby and those with whom he worked played in the disclosure of information regarding Ms. Wilson's CIA employment and about the motivations for their actions." He couldn't have gone after it, as he pointed out in his memo to which you are conveniently skipping right over, as a direct result of Libby's obstruction. I'm good with that really, because the memo speaks for itself. I'm also good with the fact that Cheney's #1 man was convicted on 3 out of 4 charges of lying. How 'bout you?

quote:

i love this part: If nothing else, the fact that the CIA’s spokesperson confirmed Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment to Mr. Novak calls into question whether the government was taking affirmative measures to conceal her identity.

To which I actually agree to a slight extent. I can't say for certain what happened to this employee who leaked that info. to Novak. I hope they got fired for it, and even prosecuted for it. Does that somehow undermine that her status was any less than covert, however?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Last edited by MisterOpus1 on Jun-03-2007 at 23:10