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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I find it odd he doesn't understand the oxymoron myself...

I think he does and that is his point...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Didn't Jihad exist before 'The West'? Why blame 'The West' then?

Militant Islam has it's roots in Political Islam, an ideology born out of the oppressive dictatorships that were installed in Middle Eastern countries after the colonialist powers left. Had Britain and France (ie. "the West" at the time) not carved up the Middle East after they had promised the Arabs a unified state during WW1, and were it not for the continued support for these regimes by America, then we probably wouldn't see the problems we do today.

Sorry guys, I should have probably extrapolated that question a little more...
I was actually being a little more literal when I asked if Jihad existed before, "The West".

While a few thought I might have forgotten the Muslim Brotherhood and their twisted views, what I meant to say was that there are many verses in the Koran that enjoin their believers to fight well before 'The West' was a gleam in Europe's eye...

Sorry for the confusion...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Didn't Jihad exist before 'The West'? Why blame 'The West' then?

In it's current virulent form it did not exist. The west, specially the US, France, and Britain, have had a complicated relationship with the middle east for centuries. I am not claiming that the cause of all the violence is the influence from the west. I am claiming that they have played an important role at enabling this phenomena and shaping it into it's current form. Therefore, to get to the root of the problem the west will have to re-evaluate how it deals with that area. I'm sure we can agree that the current approach, specially by the US, is only making things worse.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry guys, I should have probably extrapolated that question a little more... I was actually being a little more literal when I asked if Jihad existed before, "The West". While a few thought I might have forgotten the Muslim Brotherhood and their twisted views, what I meant to say was that there are many verses in the Koran that enjoin their believers to fight well before 'The West' was a gleam in Europe's eye... Sorry for the confusion...

I don't think it's of much importance though. I think this has been discussed to death. Yes there are a minority of extremists who take those verses literally, just as some people do with the bible. The bible has been pruned and refined much more than the Koran, so much of the violence in the bible is not as obvious. Must muslims though, don't take those verses of fighting with any relevance. So even if it is present in the dogma, it doesn't follow that they will carry it out.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Capitalizt I find it amusing you use those words together.

I find it amusing that you're ignorant of Zionist support and funding for the Nazi. I find it amusing you support Ron Paul who's spoken out against Israeli Occupation of Palestine and about the influence influence of the Jewish loby in the US. I find it amusing that you consider yourself to be a patriot when you support the state that almost sank the USS liberty and killed American service men. I find it amusing that you're for small goverment and fiscal conservatism when Israel sucks us dry of 2-3 billions dollars annually, your tax dollars. I find several other things amusing, but I think that's enough for now.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Capitalizt I find it amusing you use those words together.

Here, try doing some reading. I'm sure you'll find this quite amusing too. Lenni Brenner is Jewish btw, what an antisemite :

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis by Lenni Brenner

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From Wikipedia: Lenni Brenner (born 1937) is an American Marxist historian. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights activist and a prominent opponent of the Vietnam War. Brenner was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. He became an atheist at age 12 and a Marxist at age 15. Brenner's involvement with the American Civil Rights Movement began when he met James Farmer of the Congress of Racial Equality, later the organizer of the "freedom rides" of the early 1960s. He also worked with Bayard Rustin, later the organizer of Martin Luther King's 1963 "I had a dream" March on Washington. (Neither were Marxists.) Brenner was arrested three times during civil rights sit-ins in the San Francisco Bay Area. He spent 39 months in jail when a court revoked his probation for marijuana possession, because of his activities during the Berkeley Free Speech Movement at the University of California in 1964. He was an anti-war activist from the first days of the Vietnam war, speaking frequently at rallies in the Bay Area. In 1963 he organized the Committee for Narcotic Reform in Berkeley. In 1968 he co-founded the National Association for Irish Justice, the American affiliate of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. In the 1990s, he and Kwame Ture (aka Stokely Carmichael), the legendary "Black Power" leader of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, co-founded the Committee against Zionism and Racism. They also published The Anti-War Activist.

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A Review from Amazon: 281 of 348 people found the following review helpful: Rating: 5 Stars Lenni Brenner is a Courageous Speaker of the Truth, October 11, 2003 Reviewer: William Hughes (Baltimore, MD USA) History can be deceptive. It's fair to say that some of the sensational never-published-before documents, in this book, will shock those who have accepted Zionism and its supposed history, at face value, as a political movement that was the hope of the Jews. Lenni Brenner, the intrepid author of "Zionism in the Age of Dictators," reveals disturbing new evidence in his latest effort, that suggest just the opposite. In fact, he makes a compelling case that the Zionist record was "dishonorable." You can consider this excellent tome as a worthy sequel to his first expose' on the myopic Zionist zealots of that bygone era. For openers, Brenner showed how the Zionists had a long history of shameless cooperation with the Nazis, especially after the dictator Adolph Hitler had came to power in 1933. The Zionists were also in bed, to some extent, with the other members of what later became known as WWII's "Axis of Evil," that included Benito Mussolini's Italy, and Tojo Hideki's Japan. For example, in March 29,1936, Zionists praised Il Duce, and his regime, at the opening of a maritime school, funded by the Fascist government, at Civitavecchia. This is where a Zionist youth group, the "Betar," trained its sailors for the future Revisionist state. The speakers ignored the fact that on Oct. 3, 1935, Italian troops had invaded Abyssinia. On another front, the "Third Congress of the Jewish Community of the Far East," was held in Jan., 1940, in Harbin, Manchuria, then reeling under a brutal military occupation by the Japanese imperial forces. At that time, too, Tokyo was already aligned with Hitler and Italy's Mussolini, in the notorious Anti-Comintern Pact. Also, keep in mind, that the Japanese's murderous "Rape of Nanking," had occurred in Dec., 1937, and the "Crystal Night" incident on Nov. 9, 1938. Nevertheless, the Zionist confab went out of its way to legitimize the Japanese occupation by certifying it as a guarantor of the "equality of all citizens," in that beleaguered land. The Zionist also had a trade plan with the Berlin government by which German Jews could redeem their property in Nazi goods exported to then British-occupied Palestine. And to top it all off, the infamous SS-Hptscharf. Adolf Eichmann, had visited Palestine, in October, 1937, as the guest of the Zionists. He also met, in Egypt, with Feivel Polkes, a Zionist operative, whom Eichmann described as a "leading Haganah functionary." The chain-smoking Polkes was also on the Nazis' payroll "as an informer." Brenner isn't the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg's seminal "The Destruction of European Jews"; Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem"; Ben Hecht's "Perfidy"; Edwin Black's "The Transfer Agreement"; Francis R. Nicosia's "The Third Reich and the Palestine Question"; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic's "I Cannot Forgive"; and Rafael Medoff's "The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust," also dared, with varying public success. After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a "fanatical Zionist." Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator. At issue then, however, was the bargaining over the eventual fate of Hungary's Jews, who were slated for liquidation in the Nazi-run death camps. Eichmann said this about Kastner, the Zionist representative, "I believe that [he] would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. `You can have the others,' he would say, `but let me have this group here.' And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful. I would let his groups escape." Readers, too, will be surprised to learn, that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in Sept., 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler's favorite, the Swastika. The other was the blue and white banner of Zionism. The Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspaper. The reasons for this Reich-sponsored favoritism was, according to the author: The Zionists and the Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews emigrate to Palestine. As early as June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation was sending a secret memorandum to the Nazis, which said, in part: "It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state [German Reich] can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims as a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry- -indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions..." Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious "Stern Gang," late in 1940, made a written proposal to Hitler, by which the Jewish militias in Palestine, would fight on "Germany's side," in the war against England, in exchange for the Nazis help in resolving the "Jewish Question" in Europe, and their assistance in creating an "historic Jewish state." By this date, German troops had already marched into Prague, invaded Poland, and had built the first concentration camp at Auschwitz. The deranged Stern had further bragged about how the Zionist organizations were "closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in [their] ideology and structure." Stern's obscene proposal was found in the German embassy, in Turkey, after WWII. Finally, I think Brenner was right, when he wrote, "This book presents 51 historic documents to indict Zionism for repeated attempts to collaborate with Adolf Hitler. The evidence, not I, will convince you of the truth of this issue...Exposing the Zionist role in the Nazis era is part of the scrutiny of the past, required of historians."

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by George Smiley Until Israel withdraws completely from all occupied territory and let the Palestinians get on with their own lives then unfortunately no action by the Palestinians will be condemned without a criticism of the Israeli policies those actions are in response to...

Israel fought a war for their existence before the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, Shabaa Farms were even thought about being occupied.

they continue to fight a war for their existence.

historically, when things like this happen, one or the other capitulates in the name of their children and their children's future to move on with their lives. that is not happening.

in order to stay alive in this world one must be proactive.

DEATH CULT

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Originally posted by Q5echo Israel fought a war for their existence before the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, Shabaa Farms were even thought about being occupied. they continue to fight a war for their existence. historically, when things like this happen, one or the other capitulates in the name of their children and their children's future to move on with their lives. that is not happening. in order to stay alive in this world one must be proactive. DEATH CULT

Israel came in to existance via ethnic cleansing, persecution, death, desruction, deciet, theft, tremendous pressure on Western goverments for it's creation and continued existance (Balford Declaration of 1917 and AIPAC), and helping Hitler's rise to power in order to generate support for Zionism by slaughtering Sephardic and even Ashkenazi Jews, amongst numerous other victims of the holocaust. So Zioinsts are a death cult, you're quite correct on that. They'll even slaughter Jews to achieve their political and ideological objectives.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

absolutely horrifying... people dont understand that this is how these kids are brought up.

no wonder they cheer in the streets when they blow up busses full of israeli children

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Originally posted by cdzromm absolutely horrifying... people dont understand that this is how these kids are brought up. no wonder they cheer in the streets when they blow up busses full of israeli children

It is horryfying. What's even more horryfying is the military occupation, theft of land, and miserable conditions that generate and perpetuate this reality in the first place.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller