quote:

Originally posted by Dupz Is it just me or do global warming sceptics structure their arguments in a similar fashion to those Creationist people?? i.e. starting with a concluding comment and then trying to justify it by criticising others work

It is not just you.

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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Is it? That's a very broad brush stroke. Most developed countries' populations aren't increasing that fast. In fact, Mark Steyn makes a very compelling argument that many developed nations have actually sunken below a critical growth rate of 2.1 children per household that will ultimately cause their populations to go into secular, and possibly terminal decline. Where the birthrate is extremely high, however, is in many hostile, muslim nations. I don't want to get into a geopolitical argument, but let's get the facts straight before we attack the subject with a blunt object.

never has there been so many people living on earth.

i think the doubters are still suffering from the human ego syndrome. we are humans! we're #1! YEAH!! we can do no harm because the earth was made for us! yes, we can and we did. some people even say that cows produce more Co2 then cars.. well, who raised all those cows?

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this is it.

quote:

Originally posted by Haunted never has there been so many people living on earth. i think the doubters are still suffering from the human ego syndrome. we are humans! we're #1! YEAH!! we can do no harm because the earth was made for us! yes, we can and we did. some people even say that cows produce more Co2 then cars.. well, who raised all those cows?

So then what's the conclusion? SHould we slowing developed nations just go ahead and nuke the rapidly growing populations of the emerging markets out of existence? Can you get me a population growth chart by country? Then at least I'll know where to recommend we send the bombs.

quote:

Originally posted by Haunted never has there been so many people living on earth. i think the doubters are still suffering from the human ego syndrome. we are humans! we're #1! YEAH!! we can do no harm because the earth was made for us! yes, we can and we did. some people even say that cows produce more Co2 then cars.. well, who raised all those cows?

lol true.

Not sure the graph does you any justice though, that's a pretty condensed time-line. Although it does look....graphic

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Perhaps this is more instructive...



Here are some tables to go with it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/p...ople-birth-rate
http://www.ed-u.com/birth-rates.htm

quote:

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) #1 Niger: 50.16 births/1,000 population #2 Mali: 49.61 births/1,000 population #3 Uganda: 48.12 births/1,000 population #4 Afghanistan: 46.21 births/1,000 population #5 Sierra Leone: 45.41 births/1,000 population #6 Burkina Faso: 45.28 births/1,000 population #7 Somalia: 44.6 births/1,000 population #8 Angola: 44.51 births/1,000 population #9 Liberia: 43.75 births/1,000 population #10 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 42.96 births/1,000 population #11 Yemen: 42.67 births/1,000 population #12 Chad: 42.35 births/1,000 population #13 Congo, Republic of the: 42.16 births/1,000 population #14 Malawi: 42.09 births/1,000 population #15 Burundi: 41.97 births/1,000 population #16 Guinea: 41.53 births/1,000 population #17 Zambia: 40.78 births/1,000 population #18 Mauritania: 40.56 births/1,000 population #19 Mayotte: 40.35 births/1,000 population #20 Nigeria: 40.2 births/1,000 population #21 Rwanda: 40.16 births/1,000 population #22 São Tomé and Príncipe: 39.72 births/1,000 population #23 Djibouti: 39.07 births/1,000 population #24 Kenya: 38.94 births/1,000 population #25 Gaza Strip: 38.9 births/1,000 population #26 Gambia, The: 38.86 births/1,000 population #27 Madagascar: 38.6 births/1,000 population #28 Mozambique: 38.54 births/1,000 population #29 Benin: 38.1 births/1,000 population #30 Senegal: 37.4 births/1,000 population #31 Ethiopia: 37.39 births/1,000 population #32 Togo: 36.83 births/1,000 population #33 Guinea-Bissau: 36.81 births/1,000 population #34 Comoros: 36.35 births/1,000 population #35 Gabon: 35.96 births/1,000 population #36 Tanzania: 35.95 births/1,000 population #37 Haiti: 35.87 births/1,000 population #38 Oman: 35.76 births/1,000 population #39 Equatorial Guinea: 35.16 births/1,000 population #40 Cameroon: 35.07 births/1,000 population #41 Laos: 34.98 births/1,000 population #42 Sudan: 34.86 births/1,000 population #43 Côte d'Ivoire: 34.69 births/1,000 population #44 Maldives: 34.2 births/1,000 population #45 Eritrea: 33.97 births/1,000 population #46 Central African Republic: 33.52 births/1,000 population #47 Bhutan: 33.28 births/1,000 population #48 Marshall Islands: 32.37 births/1,000 population #49 Iraq: 31.44 births/1,000 population #50 West Bank: 30.99 births/1,000 population #51 Kiribati: 30.48 births/1,000 population #52 Nepal: 30.46 births/1,000 population #53 Ghana: 29.85 births/1,000 population #54 Bangladesh: 29.36 births/1,000 population #55 Solomon Islands: 29.27 births/1,000 population #56 Saudi Arabia: 29.1 births/1,000 population #57 Guatemala: 29.09 births/1,000 population #58 Paraguay: 28.77 births/1,000 population #59 Papua New Guinea: 28.76 births/1,000 population #60 Belize: 28.34 births/1,000 population #61 Samoa: 28.28 births/1,000 population #62 Zimbabwe: 27.72 births/1,000 population #63 Honduras: 27.59 births/1,000 population #64 Pakistan: 27.52 births/1,000 population #65 Tajikistan: 27.33 births/1,000 population #66 Syria: 27.19 births/1,000 population #67 Swaziland: 26.98 births/1,000 population #68 East Timor: 26.77 births/1,000 population #69 Uzbekistan: 26.46 births/1,000 population #70 El Salvador: 26.13 births/1,000 population #71 Libya: 26.09 births/1,000 population #72 Cambodia: 25.53 births/1,000 population #73 Turkmenistan: 25.36 births/1,000 population #74 Lesotho: 24.72 births/1,000 population #75 Philippines: 24.48 births/1,000 population #76 Nauru: 24.47 births/1,000 population #77 Cape Verde: 24.4 births/1,000 population #78 Micronesia, Federated States of: 24.14 births/1,000 population #79 Nicaragua: 24.12 births/1,000 population #80 Tonga: 23.67 births/1,000 population #81 Namibia: 23.52 births/1,000 population #82 Botswana: 23.17 births/1,000 population #83 Kyrgyzstan: 23.08 births/1,000 population #84 Dominican Republic: 22.91 births/1,000 population #85 Bolivia: 22.82 births/1,000 population #86 India: 22.69 births/1,000 population #87 Malaysia: 22.65 births/1,000 population #88 Egypt: 22.53 births/1,000 population #89 Tuvalu: 22.43 births/1,000 population #90 Fiji: 22.37 births/1,000 population #91 Vanuatu: 22.35 births/1,000 population #92 Kuwait: 21.95 births/1,000 population #93 Ecuador: 21.91 births/1,000 population #94 Grenada: 21.87 births/1,000 population #95 American Samoa: 21.83 births/1,000 population #96 Morocco: 21.64 births/1,000 population #97 Turks and Caicos Islands: 21.48 births/1,000 population #98 Panama: 21.45 births/1,000 population #99 Venezuela: 21.22 births/1,000 population #100 Mongolia: 21.07 births/1,000 population #101 Cook Islands: 21 births/1,000 population #102 Jordan: 20.69 births/1,000 population #103 Jamaica: 20.44 births/1,000 population #104 Mexico: 20.36 births/1,000 population #105 Colombia: 20.16 births/1,000 population #106 Peru: 20.09 births/1,000 population #107 Indonesia: 19.65 births/1,000 population #108 Saint Lucia: 19.28 births/1,000 population #109 Northern Mariana Islands: 19.27 births/1,000 population #110 Guam: 18.56 births/1,000 population #111 Brunei: 18.56 births/1,000 population #112 Guyana: 18.09 births/1,000 population #113 Lebanon: 18.08 births/1,000 population #114 Costa Rica: 18.02 births/1,000 population #115 South Africa: 17.94 births/1,000 population #116 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 17.89 births/1,000 population #117 New Caledonia: 17.75 births/1,000 population #118 Israel: 17.71 births/1,000 population #119 Palau: 17.7 births/1,000 population #120 Bahrain: 17.53 births/1,000 population #121 Montserrat: 17.51 births/1,000 population #122 Burma: 17.48 births/1,000 population #123 Azerbaijan: 17.47 births/1,000 population #124 Suriname: 17.31 births/1,000 population #125 Bahamas, The: 17.3 births/1,000 population #126 Algeria: 17.11 births/1,000 population #127 Sri Lanka: 17 births/1,000 population #128 Vietnam: 16.63 births/1,000 population #129 Antigua and Barbuda: 16.62 births/1,000 population #130 Iran: 16.57 births/1,000 population #131 Argentina: 16.53 births/1,000 population #132 French Polynesia: 16.41 births/1,000 population #133 Turkey: 16.4 births/1,000 population #134 Brazil: 16.3 births/1,000 population #135 Kazakhstan: 16.23 births/1,000 population #136 United Arab Emirates: 16.09 births/1,000 population #137 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 16.02 births/1,000 population #138 Greenland: 16.01 births/1,000 population #139 Seychelles: 15.83 births/1,000 population #140 Dominica: 15.75 births/1,000 population #141 Qatar: 15.56 births/1,000 population #142 Tunisia: 15.54 births/1,000 population #143 Mauritius: 15.26 births/1,000 population #144 Albania: 15.16 births/1,000 population #145 Korea, North: 15.06 births/1,000 population #146 Chile: 15.03 births/1,000 population #147 British Virgin Islands: 14.82 births/1,000 population #148 Netherlands Antilles: 14.56 births/1,000 population #149 Uruguay: 14.41 births/1,000 population #150 Ireland: 14.4 births/1,000 population #151 United States: 14.16 births/1,000 population #152 Faroe Islands: 14.12 births/1,000 population #153 Anguilla: 13.97 births/1,000 population #154 Thailand: 13.73 births/1,000 population #155 Virgin Islands: 13.68 births/1,000 population #156 New Zealand: 13.61 births/1,000 population #157 Iceland: 13.57 births/1,000 population #158 China: 13.45 births/1,000 population #159 Saint Pierre and Miquelon: 13.08 births/1,000 population #160 Trinidad and Tobago: 13.07 births/1,000 population #161 France: 12.91 births/1,000 population #162 Aruba: 12.83 births/1,000 population #163 Puerto Rico: 12.79 births/1,000 population #164 Barbados: 12.61 births/1,000 population #165 Cayman Islands: 12.6 births/1,000 population #166 Cyprus: 12.56 births/1,000 population #167 Armenia: 12.34 births/1,000 population #168 Macedonia, Republic of: 12.02 births/1,000 population #169 Australia: 12.02 births/1,000 population #170 Saint Helena: 11.93 births/1,000 population #171 Luxembourg: 11.84 births/1,000 population #172 Cuba: 11.44 births/1,000 population #173 Norway: 11.27 births/1,000 population #174 Bermuda: 11.26 births/1,000 population #175 Man, Isle of: 10.96 births/1,000 population #176 Russia: 10.92 births/1,000 population #177 Denmark: 10.91 births/1,000 population #178 Moldova: 10.88 births/1,000 population #179 Canada: 10.75 births/1,000 population #180 Netherlands: 10.7 births/1,000 population #181 Gibraltar: 10.69 births/1,000 population #182 Romania: 10.67 births/1,000 population #183 United Kingdom: 10.67 births/1,000 population #184 Slovakia: 10.65 births/1,000 population #185 Portugal: 10.59 births/1,000 population #186 Georgia: 10.54 births/1,000 population #187 Finland: 10.42 births/1,000 population #188 Belgium: 10.29 births/1,000 population #189 Malta: 10.28 births/1,000 population #190 Sweden: 10.2 births/1,000 population #191 Estonia: 10.17 births/1,000 population #192 Liechtenstein: 10.02 births/1,000 population #193 Spain: 9.98 births/1,000 population #194 Poland: 9.94 births/1,000 population #195 Korea, South: 9.93 births/1,000 population #196 San Marino: 9.89 births/1,000 population #197 Hungary: 9.66 births/1,000 population #198 Switzerland: 9.66 births/1,000 population #199 Croatia: 9.63 births/1,000 population #200 Bulgaria: 9.62 births/1,000 population #201 Greece: 9.62 births/1,000 population #202 Belarus: 9.5 births/1,000 population #203 Ukraine: 9.45 births/1,000 population #204 Latvia: 9.43 births/1,000 population #205 Singapore: 9.17 births/1,000 population #206 Monaco: 9.12 births/1,000 population #207 Jersey: 9.02 births/1,000 population #208 Slovenia: 9 births/1,000 population #209 Taiwan: 8.97 births/1,000 population #210 Czech Republic: 8.96 births/1,000 population #211 Lithuania: 8.87 births/1,000 population #212 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 8.8 births/1,000 population #213 Austria: 8.69 births/1,000 population #214 Guernsey: 8.65 births/1,000 population #215 Macau: 8.57 births/1,000 population #216 Italy: 8.54 births/1,000 population #217 Andorra: 8.45 births/1,000 population #218 Germany: 8.2 births/1,000 population #219 Japan: 8.1 births/1,000 population #220 Hong Kong: 7.34 births/1,000 population Weighted average: 22.0 births/1,000 population

If population growth is the problem can we puh-leez stop pointing the finger at the U.S. and many other developed nations??? I'm tired of being the world's scapegoat.

Additionally, here's the death rate by nation chart, just to be fair.



So therefore it would seem that the war on terror is also a war for the environment, no? I really don't see what the fuck Al Gore and co are whining about.

/dripping sarcasm

knowing that your children will survive their childhood is the best form of contraception

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A witty saying proves nothing.
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If global warming continues, does this mean I might get a couple more weeks use of my pool?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Is it? I haven't seen the movie. Just playing devil's advocate, but the pushback you'd receive there is, "If I'm not causing it, what's the point of changing my behavior?" I'm sure you can make a fine argument, I'm just pointing out the likely pushback to that concession.

I really advise that you see it. It's not as political or hippy-esque as you would expect. It focuses on what's happening in the world and what will likely happen if we don't try to change the natural AND man made effects.

quote:

Is it? That's a very broad brush stroke. Most developed countries' populations aren't increasing that fast. In fact, Mark Steyn makes a very compelling argument that many developed nations have actually sunken below a critical growth rate of 2.1 children per household that will ultimately cause their populations to go into secular, and possibly terminal decline. Where the birthrate is extremely high, however, is in many hostile, muslim nations. I don't want to get into a geopolitical argument, but let's get the facts straight before we attack the subject with a blunt object.

Umm yes it is. Yes you're faulting developing countries for contributing the most to this figure, but that's not the point of my argument. I'm pointing out the problem. You're deflecting by saying that counrtries other than the US are the problem and therefore we shouldn't worry about it. Are you saying that there IS no problem?? The point of my previous argument is you continually strive to avoid confronting the problem because it cannot be equitably distributed among those who are at fault. Do you think that that is an acceptable situtation when considering everything that is at stake?

quote:

Perhaps, but species have been going into extinction since the dawn of time. Darwinism is alive and well, regardless of any exogenous influences.

Yes that is true. However, I'm a conservative, and I'd like my world to be roughly consistent with what I was raised in. I'd rather like to avoid a massive destruction of life and wait a couple million years for new life to adapt. I'm pretty big on scuba diving and it's really disheartening to see coral reefs decimated within 2-3 years. And this is only within the 6-8 years that I've been diving ... people who have been diving for 20+ years have much worst stories.

quote:

Well I'm glad you're more in the conservation camp and aren't advocating carbon trading as a viable solution!

IMO carbon trading is an inevitable industry. Businesses are leading the charge nowadays actually.

quote:

Is it ironic when athiests and agnostics hope in the name of God? Or are you off the hook since you didn't capitalize the G?

Eh ... habitual behaviour from a catholic upbrinking. Don't worry it doesn't mean much

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Retro ...

My mom says she wishes she were raped by another man

quote:

Originally posted by glass My mom says she wishes she were raped by another man

was that a slight against you, or is it that she wants to be raped again?

...or was the last man she was raped by incompetent in some way?

i don't get it.

anyways, forget her. either way she's obviously sick.