I'de be paranoid if I never knew if I could get bombed while going to the club, mall, cafe, or ride the bus. No wonder Israel is constantly having to make incursions into the palestinean territory.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley And clearly you have no clue as to what the Apartheid argument actually is! It's not about domestic Israeli policy, but about Israeli policy in the occupied territories. Not that I would describe them as Apartheid (tho I can see elements), if you're going to voice your opinion on the 'Apartheid debate' then at least know what it is your opinion refers to...

I guess we didn't watch the same video...

It's up above if you want to watch it...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I guess we didn't watch the same video... It's up above if you want to watch it...

Yes my post above is directed to you and the video...you don't know what the argument is. Or...

You do know what the argument is, and either agree with it or cannot argue against it, so you move the goal posts and create a new argument, one that you can argue against.

It's called creating a straw man.

Now you realise you've been caught out, in future, when arguing against Israel being labelled as an Apartheid state, or more specifically, implementing Apartheid policies in the occupied territories, please restrict your arguments to issues effecting the Palestinians living in those territories, and not some argument you have invented about the lives of Arab citizens of Israel (who are not, in this argument, referred to as Palestinians)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Yes my post above is directed to you and the video...you don't know what the argument is. Or... You do know what the argument is, and either agree with it or cannot argue against it, so you move the goal posts and create a new argument, one that you can argue against. It's called creating a straw man. Now you realise you've been caught out, in future, when arguing against Israel being labelled as an Apartheid state, or more specifically, implementing Apartheid policies in the occupied territories, please restrict your arguments to issues effecting the Palestinians living in those territories, and not some argument you have invented about the lives of Arab citizens of Israel (who are not, in this argument, referred to as Palestinians)

So according to you, there are no Palestinians that live in Israel and they live only in the 'occupied lands'?
Right.
'Apartheid' is a word of convenience being thrown around for those too lazy to explain the real situation; at worst, it's called discrimination because lord know THAT doesn't happen to anybody in ANY Arab state.
Unless you can come up with evidence of 'Jews only buses', etc. I suggest you learn your context before using it in any argument.
My argument was far from, 'Straw Man' (yet another term that gets thrown around here), it was used to illustrate the point that if they don't do it IN Israel, why would they do it, OUTSIDE Israel?
Where's the written agenda on that??

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r So according to you, there are no Palestinians that live in Israel and they live only in the 'occupied lands'? Right. 'Apartheid' is a word of convenience being thrown around for those too lazy to explain the real situation; at worst, it's called discrimination because lord know THAT doesn't happen to anybody in ANY Arab state. Unless you can come up with evidence of 'Jews only buses', etc. I suggest you learn your context before using it in any argument. My argument was far from, 'Straw Man' (yet another term that gets thrown around here), it was used to illustrate the point that if they don't do it IN Israel, why would they do it, OUTSIDE Israel? Where's the written agenda on that??

I think I owe you an apology. I originally suspected you were deliberately trying to alter the parameters of the debate in order to justify your position, now it looks like you actually believe it!

Let me make one thing perfectly clear before I address you points - the debate over whether or not Israel undertakes Apartheid policies is concentrated on their actions in the occupied territories, NOT inside Israel (regardless of what name you want to give to Israeli Arabs - they are citizens of Israel and are therefore irrelevant to the argument)

As for you point, in the West Bank, there are Jew-only roads that only the Settlers can use. Is that good enough for you?

Or am I to be treated to yet another post from you describing how Arab Israeli citizens are treated in their own country to use as an argument against people who describe the treatment of Palestinians in a completely different country as being Apartheid?

quote:

Originally posted by xiad On paper, Egypt is a democracy.

read well wat i've posted.

quote:

Originally posted by xiad But how can you ignore the fact Husni Mubarak wants to make his son the next 'President' of Egypt. That sounds alot like a hybrid monarchy to me.

this's mentioned in ur american media just an assumption after wat's happened in Syria.

quote:

Originally posted by xiad And yes, Israel has waged a BLATANT apartheid against the Palestinian people.

Not against palastines but also inside Israel against Israeli arabs.

___________________
"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles de Gaulle

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I'de be paranoid if I never knew if I could get bombed while going to the club, mall, cafe, or ride the bus. No wonder Israel is constantly having to make incursions into the palestinean territory.

Suicide bombing appeared after Israeli terror'd been appeared.

___________________
"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles de Gaulle

Just because few Arab countries do not allow women to vote is irrelivant to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Granted, I do agree with that fact that such practices against women are backwards and disgusting.

Despite my minor agreement with you on that issue, Fir3start3r, you must look at the fact on the ground.

1) The Palestinian people are oppressed whether or not they reside in the occupied territories. Arab Israeli's, who have Israeli papers due to the fact that their families land was seized in 1946, are discriminated against as well. There may not be segregated buses, but there ARE segregated communities, and for the most part, a massivley nagative regard toward such Arabs.

2) Despite popular belief, not all Palestinians are Muslim extremists. Actually, there are THOUSANDS of Palestinian Christains suffering under the same circumstances as their fellow Muslim Palestinians. And keep in mind, just because their Muslim, doesn't make them a terrorist.

3) Last time there was a wall built to separate two parts of a country, we called it the Berlin Wall. The Israelis have built a wall right through the middle of towns and villages, killing the local Palestinian economy and cutting off essential human rights, such as the right to education. I highly doubt hearing "Olmert, tear down this wall." any time soon out of the mouth of Bush.

quote:

'Apartheid' is a word of convenience being thrown around for those too lazy to explain the real situation; at worst, it's called discrimination because lord know THAT doesn't happen to anybody in ANY Arab state.

4) Discrimination is one thing, hate crimes, rape, and MURDER are something else entirely. YES, you are right, discrimination occurs in all Arab states. I see where your going with this, your insinuations are what make it conveniant for YOU to post on message boards in utter ignorance about the situation on the ground. Judging by the sarcastic use of wording, and posting of HIGHLY IRREVILANT films, it seems like you enjoy hearing the sound of your own voice, rather, reading the words of your own text.
Discrimination occurs in all countries. Take the United States for example. There has been over 200 years of discrimination against any people of color. Blacks, asians, latinos, jews, and now arabs. All have experienced some sort of discrimination in the "Land of the Free". I see no need to elaborate further on this.

Furthermore, you must remember that the Israeli and US governments have induced a near civil war int he Palestinian territories following the election of Hamas. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Hamas supporter, nor do I stand by what Hamas believes in or stands for, however, regardless of such, the WERE in all fairness elected DEMOCRATICALLY. If the US and Israel TRULY supported democracy, which they clearly do not, Hamas would have been recognized as a democratically elected government. They were not. Instead, the US decided to cut off funds to the Palestinian territories, causing unprecidented unemployment in the territories, all within the cage of a 'security wall' courtesy of the Israeli government.
Now all Israel needs to do is watch as the Palestinians kill eachother over the Hamas/Fateh issue.
Congratulations, democracy has prevailed, eh?

___________________
"I believe in a long, prolonged, derrangement of the senses to attain the unknown" - Jim Morrison

Good post (but don't hold your breath that anyone will listen to any of it!)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley And clearly you have no clue as to what the Apartheid argument actually is! It's not about domestic Israeli policy, but about Israeli policy in the occupied territories. Not that I would describe them as Apartheid (tho I can see elements), if you're going to voice your opinion on the 'Apartheid debate' then at least know what it is your opinion refers to...

Umm Palestinians want a country a part from Israel, what are you on about?

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by xiad Just because few Arab countries do not allow women to vote is irrelivant to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Granted, I do agree with that fact that such practices against women are backwards and disgusting.

Well, at least we agree on something

quote:

1) The Palestinian people are oppressed whether or not they reside in the occupied territories. Arab Israeli's, who have Israeli papers due to the fact that their families land was seized in 1946, are discriminated against as well. There may not be segregated buses, but there ARE segregated communities, and for the most part, a massivley nagative regard toward such Arabs.

And why wouldn't there be? We're talking about Arabs that conspired to attack Israel that caused the 6-Day War.
I'm sure there are many other reasons since then but the resentment and distrust don't just disappear over night.
That doesn't mean I don't disagree that something should be done to at least get them out of the Limbo that was created out of that mess.

quote:

2) Despite popular belief, not all Palestinians are Muslim extremists. Actually, there are THOUSANDS of Palestinian Christains suffering under the same circumstances as their fellow Muslim Palestinians. And keep in mind, just because their Muslim, doesn't make them a terrorist.

uh...ok.
Thanks? (not sure what you mean by this since I've never inferred anything of the sort?)

quote:

3) Last time there was a wall built to separate two parts of a country, we called it the Berlin Wall. The Israelis have built a wall right through the middle of towns and villages, killing the local Palestinian economy and cutting off essential human rights, such as the right to education. I highly doubt hearing "Olmert, tear down this wall." any time soon out of the mouth of Bush.

Ah yes, walls.
I agree, walls suck.
However, walls either keep people in or out.
Guess which?
And since the situation wasn't going to be changed by the 'other side' anytime, the wall was built to keep undesirables, out.
I'm well aware that walls don't build bridges but neither do constant RPG barrages on civilians.
So unless there's a solution to the stopping of the RPGs, I don't see the wall coming down anytime soon either.
I might not agree with it either but I'm pretty sure the original meaning was lost and now looks like a pen for the Palestinians.
The Palestinian authorities should probably learn to house their unsavory elements lest someone do it for them; hence the wall which now effects everyone.
If you have a better idea, lets here it.

quote:

4) Discrimination is one thing, hate crimes, rape, and MURDER are something else entirely. YES, you are right, discrimination occurs in all Arab states. I see where your going with this, your insinuations are what make it conveniant for YOU to post on message boards in utter ignorance about the situation on the ground. Judging by the sarcastic use of wording, and posting of HIGHLY IRREVILANT films, it seems like you enjoy hearing the sound of your own voice, rather, reading the words of your own text. Discrimination occurs in all countries. Take the United States for example. There has been over 200 years of discrimination against any people of color. Blacks, asians, latinos, jews, and now arabs. All have experienced some sort of discrimination in the "Land of the Free". I see no need to elaborate further on this.

Well thanks for Ad Hominem I guess.
I'm glad you understand what 'discrimination' is.
The point, obviously missed, was that Israel was left with a tough decision about a land that didn't belong to anyone and came under their control.
Granted, they probably could had a resolution before now and you can't say to me they're not trying because it would be a lie.

quote:

Furthermore, you must remember that the Israeli and US governments have induced a near civil war int he Palestinian territories following the election of Hamas.

Wait, what?
The Israelis and the Americans are responsible for the civil war?
Wow.
All I've ever heard from his board regarding Israel and their military movements was how imperialistic and Nazi-like their regime is.
You can't honestly tell me had Israel actually stepped in between Fatah and Hamas that that would somehow magically change in the name of 'democracy'?
I raise my eyebrow at that seriously.

quote:

Instead, the US decided to cut off funds to the Palestinian territories, causing unprecidented unemployment in the territories,

Unfortunate yes, however Hamas is labelled a 'terrorist' organization.
Explain to us why people's taxpayer dollars should be funding this group again?
Especially since Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri has issued a statement urging Muslims to support Hamas, and calling on Hamas to unite with al Qaeda and bring shari’a law to Gaza.
Yea, that would be brilliant!
>>Source<<

But wait, Bush DID actually fund Fatah and guess what? Has now solidified Hamas' claws into the Palestine people.

quote:

A Bad Week for the Good Guys Hamas, Fatah, and the new Palestinian reality. by Tom Rose 06/22/2007 12:00:00 AM THE PAST WEEK has been a good one for terrorists. The birth of the world's first truly terrorist state in Gaza was quickly followed by a Western response that, if sustained, all but guarantees that terror state's survival. While there are plenty of examples, past and present, of states that encourage, fund and even practice terrorism, no nations have ever been created explicitly for the sake of terrorism. Not even the Taliban. Hamas was built upon the terrorist edifice created by the organization it recently supplanted--the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), or "Fatah" as it is has become more recently known. The PLO was created in 1964, three years before the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, not to create the world's 22nd Arab state, but to destroy its only Jewish state. Hamas overthrew the PLO in Gaza not to change the PLO's dream, but to fulfill it. What, then, is Washington's answer to Hamastan in Gaza? Why, another bailout of the one organization responsible for the entire debacle in the first place--the PLO. After 45 years of ground work preparing for Hamas' takeover by radicalizing Palestinian society through blood-curdling terrorism, mind-boggling corruption, and world-class inefficiency, the U.S. and Israeli governments have announced their gratitude to Fatah with a billion dollar emergency aid package. Worse than being just another advertisement for diplomatic incompetence, this feeble response to the Hamas takeover will achieve the opposite of what we claim to want. Force- feeding life back into the PLO will not weaken Hamas; it will strengthen it by giving the PLO another chance to demonstrate its fraudulent duplicity. Funding the PLO will not strengthen any real Palestinian moderates; it will discredit them by seeming to tie their fortunes once again to a corrupt, inept--and immoderate--organization. Palestinian society cannot be transformed by reviving the group responsible for its degradation. How does one fight terrorism by rewarding those who invented it? Do "Fatah first" advocates believe that financially rewarding the already heavily-armed and well-funded "security" fighters of Fatah, who turned tail and ran at the sight of Hamas gunmen, will lead them now to fight to retake their posts, having gotten a check from Washington? Do they think the PLO's corruption is best combated by re-upping the employment contracts for its 200,000 dysfunctional bureaucrats--60,000 of whom are the gangsters, thugs, and terrorists associated with the PLO's 13 so called "security services"? With Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert dutifully nodding by his side, President Bush called last week's debacle "a wonderful opportunity for freedom." How exactly is the resurrection of the world's founding terrorist organization a "wonderful opportunity" for anything other than more terrorism and corruption? It might be one thing if a policy of saving the PLO had never been tried. But it has been tried, and it has failed, not once, not twice, but three times. It was tried and failed in 1970 when President Nixon pressured Jordan's King Hussein to let the PLO decamp to Lebanon after the PLO failed to destroy Jordan. It destroyed Lebanon instead. In 1982 the United States again came to the PLO's rescue by arranging its exit from Lebanon during the Israeli invasion. The third, most damaging resuscitation came with the Oslo Peace Accords in 1993, this time not at American hands, but at Israel's. President Bush's "wonderful opportunity" pabulum is not only an embarrassing absurdity; it misses the whole point of what has happened in Gaza. Now there are two Palestines, an East Palestine (the West Bank) controlled by competing and discredited PLO warlords, and a West Palestine (Gaza) ruled by a fervently jihadist, well-organized, and highly disciplined Hamas. Even if something could be done to support Fatah in the West Bank (which in itself is undesirable), this would not enable Fatah to return to Gaza. The PLO is finished. The Palestinians know it. The Arabs know it. Only we don't know it. The PLO's leader, Abu Mazen, is as likely to use the West Bank to retake Gaza as Chiang Kai-shek was to use Taiwan to retake Communist China. Today's lifeline to the PLO will do no more to reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza than American support for Chiang in the 1950s did to reverse Mao's takeover of the Chinese mainland. But at least with Taiwan we eventually got a model prosperous democracy--far more than we will ever get from supporting Fatah. Even in the West Bank, where the PLO is supposedly strong, Fatah is more a fiction than a fact. Its leader, Abu Mazen, is Palestine's version of the Holographic Doctor from Star Trek Voyager. As far as most Palestinians are concerned, he is nothing but a figment of the West's imagination, and not a very imaginative one at that. The 13 private militias and armies that make up Fatah control Abu Mazen. He does not control them. Abu Mazen is a puppet with no strings. He has no following in either Palestine, East or West. And the Bush-Olmert plan to prop him up won't succeed for long. The immediate danger to Israel and the West comes from Gaza, not the West Bank. It is in Gaza that Hamas can assemble serious and dangerous weaponry with which to attack Israel (not to mention other Palestinians). It is in Gaza, not the West Bank, where agents of the Iranian regime will plant themselves for renewed war against Israel. It is in Gaza where al Qaeda and other terrorists are already establishing themselves. Gaza is a terror threat, and the West Bank could well become even more of one than it is now. This is the reality democratic leaders should face, rather than wishing what is happening were not.

>>Source<<

quote:

all within the cage of a 'security wall' courtesy of the Israeli government.

See above explanation on this.

quote:

Now all Israel needs to do is watch as the Palestinians kill eachother over the Hamas/Fateh issue. Congratulations, democracy has prevailed, eh?

Hasn't Israel done enough on stirring the pot?
I know I'm sounding like an Israeli apologist through most of this, but I'm also playing devil's advocate since Israel is far from being perfect in this whole story.
However, the Palestinians themselves are far from being exempt, especially in matters that affect their closest neighbors.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."