quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Actually, two Republicans have highlighted the split in the party over the war. Republicans want progress too, and we have not seen it. As a young Republican, I have lost all respect for the current administration.

It's actually 4 Reupublican senators: Lugar, Voinovich, Warner, and McConnell have all expressed serious doubts. However, that's only because the incompetance of this war, or the polls, have become impossible to ignore. It's been quite obvious since 2005 that the lack of progress, the lack of accountability, poor decisions, and the stubborness to stick with those poor decisions would result in the current situation.

I don't understand people. We justify an invasion based on the flimsiest of uncertain, selective intelligence of a foreign government, and yet we're skeptical and dismissive of deteroriating intelligence estimates we gather about ourselves???

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Retro ...

Last edited by occrider on Jun-28-2007 at 04:17

I predict a Pol Pot type situation happening. Like when the US left Vietnam, the entire region was reached even higher levels of instability providing the conditions for destructive rule.

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quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Are you sure? Because with such a comparison to S. Korea, one would easily conclude otherwise.

yes i'm sure. you should study the Korean war before you go drawing conclusions.

what started as a civil war turned into the communists pushing us all the way down the peninsula and occupying Seoul and everything North of the Han river.

it took some REAL balls to get back to the 38th before we signed a cease fire (never been a treaty). since, 55,000 American soldiers dead and the rest of S. korea is a model of Asian history thanks to two items on your list. the other three will KILL you.

quote:

Not sure where you might gain any prediction I have out of what I've stated in this thread so far. But I think given the result of the past 4 1/3 years with our occupation, the concept of our presence being part of the problem and not the solution is long overdue.

lets not speak of concepts because you don't even know what the problem is to even conceptualize a solution.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo yes i'm sure. you should study the Korean war before you go drawing conclusions. what started as a civil war turned into the communists pushing us all the way down the peninsula and occupying Seoul and everything North of the Han river. it took some REAL balls to get back to the 38th before we signed a cease fire (never been a treaty). since, 55,000 American soldiers dead and the rest of S. korea is a model of Asian history. lets not speak of concepts because you don't even know what the problem is to even conceptualize a solution.

Yeah, technically we're still at war with them

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Yeah, technically we're still at war with them

and technically, there is a clear winner.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo yes i'm sure. you should study the Korean war before you go drawing conclusions.

It's not the conclusions I'm drawing - rather, it's your comparison to the Korean War that I'm questioning.

quote:

what started as a civil war turned into the communists pushing us all the way down the peninsula and occupying Seoul and everything North of the Han river. it took some REAL balls to get back to the 38th before we signed a cease fire (never been a treaty). since, 55,000 American soldiers dead and the rest of S. korea is a model of Asian history thanks to two items on your list. the other three will KILL you.

Yes, I'm fully aware of what occurred. My father-in-law served in the Korean War, and it's nothing but a pleasure to converse with him on these matters.

The problem with your comparison, however, is the force of China on the Communists. There is no other force that's remotely comparable to that in comparison to the Iraq War - Iran is a drop in the bucket with assistance and influence. The Sunni insurgence along with Shiite militias have been the primary concern and continue to be so.

And there is nothing that would indicate any insistence of the Iraqi public wanting us to stay (according to nearly every poll), and as I pointed out a coupla months ago, the majority of the Iraqi government wants us out as well. There is no fight to a 38th parallel on this battle. There is no primary battle line that we can successfully push-back the Sunni insurgency and Shiite militias. Instead we are caught right smack dab in the middle with an unparalleled balancing act between propping up a fundamentalist Shiite government in cahoots with Iran and has the verge of implosion issues of its own, while fighting off the Sunni insurgency but arming them at the same time to help us with al Qaeda, and pray to heaven above that those guns do not turn against us.

I've resisted comparing this war to Vietnam for the very same reason you cannot compare to the Korean War. Indeed there are certain elements to compare here and there to most of the major wars we have fought, but a generalization to what has occurred in one war in hopes to prop up our effort in this war is both misleading and unrealistic.

quote:

lets not speak of concepts because you don't even know what the problem is to even conceptualize a solution.

Ahh yes, I must not be identifying the problem very well then. I keep forgetting in your Wingnutosphere, things are going so incredibly well in Iraq that there is no problem to know about, let alone discuss any possible solutions. How dare I speak of our presence being part of the problem and not the solution.

Perhaps one day you'll entertain us all with your notion of a worthwhile solution other than "stay the course", which really has gone so famously hasn't it?

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo and technically, there is a clear winner.

do you mean the arms industry?

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X do you mean the arms industry?

The stable prosperous free market society of south korea.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The stable prosperous free market society of south korea.

Ummm ... what? Exactly what about Iraq is analagous to Korea? Sigh, you guys could at least try. Heh or are you so bold as to desire replicating the Korean example for Iraq in the retarded manner everything has been done in Iraq so far? Do you all actually still delude yourselves into believeing that you can actually do ANYTHING competantly?

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quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I've resisted comparing this war to Vietnam for the very same reason you cannot compare to the Korean War.

as well you should on it's technical merits. wars are different from one to the next, but when we fight them, there will always remain a commonality when we fight with courage. when we don't, when we fight with politics, you get pure horror to follow.

you should also appreciate, though, what courage has brought a many unfortunate people in the past at our hand, our sword, and at our sacrifice. thats my point with this thread.

i've said this before here and ill say it forever. no greater freedoms or prosperities has come from other than the barrel of our guns, ever. thats a fact.

i believe no greater horror has come from politics.

these are weasels we're dealing with in Iraq not Mao's invincible army. desperate, but very deadly weasels. criminals that not even the most religious Iraqi wants in their country.

i don't want to be there. George Bush doesn't want to be there no matter how you twist his words, but we're there and if you believe that nothing can stop us we won't be there for long. given the fact that no one believes in us or the Iraqis i'm pretty sure we all know thats not gonna happen.

quote:

How dare I speak of our presence being part of the problem and not the solution.

you can speak about it all you want as loudly as you want. i just want you to remember what your words do and how they affect people and soldiers on both sides of the fight.

quote:

Perhaps one day you'll entertain us all with your notion of a worthwhile solution other than "stay the course", which really has gone so famously hasn't it?

no, you keep fighting. you ignore the rhetoric study the enemy (because he studies you and everyone else) and despite it all you keep fighting. because deep down inside you know thats what you have to do if you want to get to a place in order to get home.

Iraq can and will be a place like history has shown us it can be when we put the courage into it.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Exactly what about Iraq is analagous to Korea?

nothing yet.

quote:

Heh or are you so bold as to desire replicating the Korean example for Iraq in the retarded manner everything has been done in Iraq so far?

nope. we just know what happens when our efforts and our ideals succeed. it's history.

and i believe you do as well. as well as anybody.

quote:

Do you all actually still delude yourselves into believeing that you can actually do ANYTHING competantly?

yes.

South Korea... Iraq?
I mean aside from people shooting at each other who happen to mostly be from their own country, there really isn't a parallel. Though there is an awfully big tangent!

Korea had
Clear cut sides, NK, Russia and China vs everyone else
Iraq has
Everyone out for their religious belief, everyone out for their national service/pride, a bunch of imported ruffians serving up trouble (US, UK, Al Quaida and Iran) and a whole lot of people that just don't like each other over personal grudges.
Korea had
UN Troops and approval from the majority
Iraq has
US Troops and some people from other countries in small amounts along for the ride
Korea had
A decisive outcome to push the enemy line over the border
Iraq has
No boarders, no easily identifiable enemy.
Korea had
A great big demilitarised zone to keep them from killing each other after the big dust up settled.
Iraq has
Independent warlords fighting each other and the odd foreign target wandering through giving them something new to shoot at or blow up
Korea had
Settled down to a dull roar after 40 something years
Iraq has
Endemic and religious hatreds for each other which will last generations.



Now, if you really want to draw some parallels, we could compare Iraq to Vietnam...