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Originally posted by Q5echo Chavez isn't stupid though. the only thing i can think of that would justify him ratcheting up a large military force like this for the long run is his own ambitions for his little sphere of influence. to me that makes so much more sense.

Who is he going to flex his muscle at?

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by Q5echo as far as submarines are concerned, yes, Russian boats are not only cheap but plentiful, simple to use and train, and there is an established spare parts market for them. (subs require perpetual maintenance. they are huge money pits) its just good value for dollar. Russian top tier export boats like the newer Kilos are good boats and many countries buy them because they can't afford top tier German units. i know it sounds like the automobile market but the Germans and Japs make the finest and most advanced conventional boats in the world. the problem with Venezuela becomes training and this is why this is soooo stupid and naive on Chavez's part. see, you can have the finest fleet money can buy, it does you absolutely no good if you don't have the finest crew money can train. training a fleet, even a squadron, of competent bubbleheads takes years to become proficient and deadly with a submarine. by that time, no one will even remember what the hell a "Neocon" is much less have to worry about a Bushitler boogeyman coming to get him Chavez isn't stupid though. the only thing i can think of that would justify him ratcheting up a large military force like this for the long run is his own ambitions for his little sphere of influence. to me that makes so much more sense.

Well said . I think the subs purchase is a stretch, even for good ol' Hugo. Sure, buy a bunch of Kalashnikov's, some jets etc. but some subs? Why not just some good destroyers or frigates? Although, those Kilo's can just sit relatively still in key locations and just listen. Not too bad for passive defense of one's extended coastal area I guess.

These deals always remind me of one of the greatest ironies (?) of our time - that the largest arms exporters are also the permanent members of the Security Council. It's a laughable situation.

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Originally posted by pmoisse Well said . I think the subs purchase is a stretch, even for good ol' Hugo. Sure, buy a bunch of Kalashnikov's, some jets etc. but some subs? Why not just some good destroyers or frigates? Although, those Kilo's can just sit relatively still in key locations and just listen. Not too bad for passive defense of one's extended coastal area I guess.

Subs project power differently than a ship. Being sneaky and all that.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by Sunsnail its affordable

LOL, if the Russian military equipment and technology was shit, nobody would buy it now, would they? It works, and has been successful when used by professionals in various conflicts. Quite reliable as well. There's still 40-year old Russian tanks in service in some countries - heck, some people trash their cars long before that. Russia is ranked in top 5 countries in terms of weapons sales, thats not that shitty now, is it? The weapons they sell, the guns break and dont fire, eh? Submarines fail to leave docks and helicopters crash after every other take-off, right? The only reason why Russian military equipment has had such bad history since 1991 is because of little money to upkeep, maintenance and proper care. When your submarine receives little or no maintenance in its lifetime after regular use, you wouldn't expect it to be in the same condition now, would you?

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Originally posted by Q5echo no they don't, Chavez just needs an enemy. it's so transparent it's laughable. don't be so dumb to fall for his bullshit. or you're no better than me and Bush, right?

According to you then, Venezuela should just let their coastline be unprotected - and continue helding unprotected their massive oil/gas fields offshore that is the bloodline of the regime. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright, Einstein. Yes, according to you Chavez just wants to throw money around for some crappy Russian equipment ... whateva ... You see, ships are easy to see and can be wiped out with a single US military attack, considering the US military prowess. Subs are a different story. Einstein, Russian subs are not the greatest in the world, I never said that, but they rank well, and are well equipped and technologically great. Price is of course one of the main reasons.

German subs???? Pfffft ... yeah, based on whose technology do their have subs? Their submarine technology was wiped clean after WW2 and they are not frontrunners in military equipment sales by any means. Most of equipment they sold was from the Cold War era and had a lot of Soviet weaponry too, given to such wars like the Bosnian, Croat and Uganda conflicts ...

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Jul-01-2007 at 03:51

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Originally posted by Magnetonium LOL, if the Russian military equipment and technology was shit, nobody would buy it now, would they? It works, and has been successful when used by professionals in various conflicts. Quite reliable as well. There's still 40-year old Russian tanks in service in some countries - heck, some people trash their cars long before that. Russia is ranked in top 5 countries in terms of weapons sales, thats not that shitty now, is it? The weapons they sell, the guns break and dont fire, eh? Submarines fail to leave docks and helicopters crash after every other take-off, right? The only reason why Russian military equipment has had such bad history since 1991 is because of little money to upkeep, maintenance and proper care. When your submarine receives little or no maintenance in its lifetime after regular use, you wouldn't expect it to be in the same condition now, would you?

It's like a choice between lamborghini or a corvette. Both work good, but one is better and more expensive.

You don't need top of the line stuff to fight random levels in 3rd world country or whatnot.

If you go against top militaries in the world, then maybe you want to get the best stuff.

Russian stuff works. But most of them aren't better than US gear.

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree It's like a choice between lamborghini or a corvette. Both work good, but one is better and more expensive. You don't need top of the line stuff to fight random levels in 3rd world country or whatnot. If you go against top militaries in the world, then maybe you want to get the best stuff. Russian stuff works. But most of them aren't better than US gear.

The truth is, with today's military tactics and warfare more expensive military equipment means jack shit. You can anytime fork up top of the line submarine with a cheap torpedo. So what? Its about how you use it. If there are two CD players at hand, one is SONY and the other is a lesser-known brand that works just as great but costs twice less, what would you do? Would you buy a 10-dollar knife made in USA or a different one that does exactly the same stuff and its stainless steel too but costs a dollar but made somewhere else? Kapish???

EDIT: A 40-year-old Kalashnikov gun in the hands of an experienced fighter (who also knows his gun like the aplhabet) would work much better than a brand new KICK ASS top of the line newest US assault rifle that a conscript got a month ago. So what? Who's gonna kick whose ass? If the gun does the same stuff, just as reliable if not more, durable, but shoots 10 metres less the distance, and costs 5 times less ... well, you see where I am getting at? Its not like in the battlefield there are pure equal fair perfect fighting conditions, because then yeah, the best submarine will squeeze out a victory. Thats not the new way of warfare, bud. Get with the times.

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Jul-01-2007 at 07:09

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Originally posted by Magnetonium The truth is, with today's military tactics and warfare more expensive military equipment means jack shit. You can anytime fork up top of the line submarine with a cheap torpedo. So what? Its about how you use it. If there are two CD players at hand, one is SONY and the other is a lesser-known brand that works just as great but costs twice less, what would you do? Would you buy a 10-dollar knife made in USA or a different one that does exactly the same stuff and its stainless steel too but costs a dollar but made somewhere else? Kapish??? EDIT: A 40-year-old Kalashnikov gun in the hands of an experienced fighter (who also knows his gun like the aplhabet) would work much better than a brand new KICK ASS top of the line newest US assault rifle that a conscript got a month ago. So what? Who's gonna kick whose ass? If the gun does the same stuff, just as reliable if not more, durable, but shoots 10 metres less the distance, and costs 5 times less ... well, you see where I am getting at? Its not like in the battlefield there are pure equal fair perfect fighting conditions, because then yeah, the best submarine will squeeze out a victory. Thats not the new way of warfare, bud. Get with the times.

Yes, it's the training that matters a lot. Yes. Knowing how to use your equipment matters a lot too.

End of debate on this subject. lol

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by Magnetonium According to you then, Venezuela should just let their coastline be unprotected - and continue helding unprotected their massive oil/gas fields offshore that is the bloodline of the regime. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright, Einstein.

against whom then should Chavez be afraid of? who is going to take his precious oil? and why?

why are you so quick to defend this guy? he's a rebel without a cause or clue.

i'll be honest with you, if he does want to become the new Castro of the Western Hemisphere then he's got a lot more to worry about economically than defending his coastline. which, BTW, has been undefended since Venezuela became a founding member of OPEC half a century ago.

ask yourself how long Neocons will be in office soon and what Chavez's motivations will be once they are gone.

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according to you Chavez just wants to throw money around for some crappy Russian equipment ... whateva ... You see, ships are easy to see and can be wiped out with a single US military attack, considering the US military prowess. Subs are a different story. Einstein, Russian subs are not the greatest in the world, I never said that, but they rank well, and are well equipped and technologically great. Price is of course one of the main reasons.

i don't care what he's buying Einstien, i'm trying to figure out his motivations or why he's buying it. he's buying a lot more than subs.

i have personally tracked three export Kilos in my lifetime. i was on US submarines for 10 years. i know how quiet they can be when properly crewed. i know how vulnerable ANY platform can be when they are put to sea by a proper crew, but it takes years to get to that level.

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German subs???? Pfffft ... yeah, based on whose technology do their have subs?

their own. Germany has been at the forefront of submarining since the turn of last century. Germany never "wiped their technology clean" wtf? their entire military industrial complex was restricted in the fifties and their restrictions for U-boats have been in size since the sixties but they still make the some of the finest conventional boats around like the 212. they were the first to implement AIP (air independent propulsion) and production hydrogen cell technology underwater. German 209's are have been upgrading and selling for decades. they're not as capable over-the horizon as Russian Kilos or as capable period but you'll find a 209 in just about every smaller sub navy in the world. just pick up a Janes.

the German arms industry is one of the largest and most successful in world and they consistently produce some of the finest weapons systems in the world. Germany is third behind Russia in terms of Billions of $ exported.

USA: 7.9
Russia: 6.7
Germany: 3.9
France: 1.6
Britain: 1.1
Netherlands: 1.5
Italy: 0.9
China: 0.6
Sweden: 0.5
Israel: 0.2

again youre pulling shit out of your ass, kid. stop it. you think you know but really, you know nothing about anything. and i'm beginning to suspect you don't know how to read.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-01-2007 at 17:55

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Originally posted by Q5echo ... the German arms industry is one of the largest and most successful in world and they consistently produce some of the finest weapons systems in the world. ...

Any real world examples?

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Originally posted by star-traveller Any real world examples?

the rankings are as follows in terms of arms exprts.

USA: 7.9
Russia: 6.7
Germany: 3.9
France: 1.6
Britain: 1.1
Netherlands: 1.5
Italy: 0.9
China: 0.6
Sweden: 0.5
Israel: 0.2


>Stockholm International Peace Institute<

do i have name specfic weapons and systems or can you take like 30 seconds out of your day do do it. i'm at work.

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Originally posted by star-traveller Any real world examples?

ever heard of Rheinmetall?

their Waffe division also makes some very fine gun mounted systems

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Rheinmetall Landsysteme GmbH embodies the Land Systems division of the Rheinmetall Defence Group. As a major supplier of systems for ground forces, the company develops and manufactures wheeled and tracked armoured vehicles as well as turret systems and weapon stations. To date, the company has supplied more than 14,000 vehicles and subsystems to customers in 36 countries. The company has its headquarters in Kiel, with further locations in Gersthofen, Kassel and Unterluess. These sites give the systems specialists an efficient infrastructure with development, design and testing, production, quality assurance, sales, logistics and after sales services. Rheinmetall Landsysteme GmbH currently has around 1,600 employees. The company generated sales of approx. 380 million euros in 2006.

the Leopard 2 from KMW (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann). NATO's main battle tank.







Howaldswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) THE world's leading builder of conventional submarines. Magnetstupidum will deny that to the bitter end though.


the Krauts have in their genetic make-up to build the finest precision machinery on the planet. they've been that way for centuries. no treaty will EVER take that away from them.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-01-2007 at 20:22