quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Didnt want to interfere, and dont want to take sides or criticize anyone here, but I gotta say that MisterOpus1 really nailed his case on this one ;-) thats a lot of links, lot of information. I'll spend a good hour reading all that.

you can tell he prepared for this one. he had to, he has a lot to lose.

really though, it's just spin.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo we know you don't care enough about the effort to see any side whether they be conservatives who have supported it all along or liberals who have been there extensively and criticized it all along and now see true change in the effort and it's goals, we know this.

So tell me, sir, given these two "librul" authors' own words that I have extensively quoted that directly undermines their anti-war, anti-Bush credentials, how exactly am I supposed to interpret their drastic change of heart by oh-so-suddenly cheerleading the Surge effort now?

Perhaps with a healthy sense of incredulity, given their actual true pro-neocon, pro-war positions even before this war was underway? Or is that just too darn anti-Bush of me?

quote:

do you believe there is progress or not? whether you believe in the effort or not. simple objectivity, thats all thats being asked.

I think I've objectively examined the situation as best as possible. One might conclude that it's not folks like myself who've had difficulties examining this debacle with objectivity, but perhaps the unquestionable war supporters who've rarely ever questioned the complete ineptitude and lack of foresight of this Administration with it's invasion of a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or al Qaeda and absolutely no viable post-war plan.

But then again, I guess the ones that would conclude such heresy are us crazy (albeit majority of Americans and majority of the world) uber-lefties.

quote:

is it too painfull for your objectivity given all you have invested in this efforts failure?

What efforts have I truly invested, sir? Could you perhaps just once in your life pin the blame on the failures of this war not on the press, not on the libruls, not on everyone else surrounding the jack-ass and crew in office, and instead pin the fucking tail on the jack-ass himself?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you can tell he prepared for this one. he had to, he has a lot to lose.

Q, we all have a lot to lose - this is EXACTLY why this war was a mistake from the getgo. I'm sorry that the actual reality of the situation in Iraq is unpleasant. There's simply not enough purple fingers and boots on the ground that can sustain this neocon fantasy much longer.

But I've given up on the dreams and ideological world police-state and endless war mantra of the neocons long ago. Their heads are somewhere lost between their collective asscracks, and I simply cannot support anymore of their dreams without understanding reality by any measure.

Sorry.

quote:

really though, it's just spin.

Seems to be a reoccurring thought from you every time I post something with evidence to support. So are you denying that these two so-called "librul" authors are not as anti-war and anti-Bush as I have demonstrated BY THEIR OWN WORDS? If so, please present your evidence now.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Cover your eyes, folks. You mustn't see more "spin" from me:

quote:

The main Sunni Arab political bloc quit the Iraqi cabinet on Wednesday, plunging the government into crisis on a day when suicide bombers killed more than 70 people with massive strikes in the capital. The Sunni Accordance Front said its five cabinet members and Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zobaie would resign from Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's government. "This is probably the most serious political crisis we have faced since the passage of the constitution. If unresolved the implications are grave," the remaining deputy prime minister, Barhim Salih, a Kurd, told Reuters. Maliki spoke to U.S. President George W. Bush by video link and reassured him "dialogue with our brothers in the Accordance Front will not stop" despite the boycott, Maliki's office said. White House spokesman Tony Snow said after the call: "The president emphasized that the Iraqi people and the American people need to see action, not just words ... on the political front," Snow told reporters in Washington. The Iraqi government said 1,653 civilians were killed in July, a third more than the previous month, despite a fall in the number of deaths among U.S. troops [...] Those standing down include the ministers of culture, women, planning, and higher education, and the junior foreign affairs minister. Their withdrawal may have little practical effect on a government already paralyzed by infighting. The Shi'ite bloc of radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr withdrew in April. But the withdrawal was a blow to reconciliation efforts: luring the large Sunni bloc into government had been hailed as a major achievement when Maliki took power last year. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070801...X_z8ugIdk8E1vAI

So much progress to go around.......

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Didnt want to interfere, and dont want to take sides or criticize anyone here, but I gotta say that MisterOpus1 really nailed his case on this one ;-) thats a lot of links, lot of information. I'll spend a good hour reading all that.

For the record, Opus always utterly destroys all the Republicans and Neocons on this board on a fairly regular basis, so this is nothing new to me.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z For the record, Opus always utterly destroys all the Republicans and Neocons on this board on a fairly regular basis, so this is nothing new to me.

Neocons? There are no neocons here. Opus always does his homework. I wish I had all time to come back with all that information. Believe me, even if I came here with articles, its hard to persuade a TA crowd. Just wanted to share the article. :]

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Vernato

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan Neocons? There are no neocons here. Opus always does his homework. I wish I had all time to come back with all that information. Believe me, even if I came here with articles, its hard to persuade a TA crowd. Just wanted to share the article. :]

It isn't hard to persuade my friend, those holding opposite views to Opus' just never come around with hard data. It's hard to believe in a rebuttal when it's mostly based in ad hominems and opinion.

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan I am really surprised that nobody made a thread about the military progress in Iraq.

Go back a page- here

Two older articles I just came across today when I got a little curious as to the stance on this "surge" idea. I'm sure there's others that are a bit more to the point about the philosophy on the "surge", but this following article was one I ran across not too long ago and wanted to track down. It exemplifies my point I was making earlier about the dire political problems in Iraq and how that can directly undermine the whole "surge" operation completely. This was from back in April:

quote:

The Pentagon is laying the groundwork to extend the U.S. troop buildup in Iraq. At the same time, the administration is warning Iraqi leaders that the boost in forces could be reversed if political reconciliation is not evident by summer. This approach underscores the central difficulty facing President Bush. If political progress is not possible in the relatively short term, then the justification for sending thousands more U.S. troops to Baghdad — and accepting the rising U.S. combat death toll that has resulted — will disappear. That in turn would put even more pressure on Bush to yield to the Democratic-led push to wind down the war in coming months. If the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki does manage to achieve the political milestones demanded by Washington, then the U.S. military probably will be told to sustain the troop buildup much longer than originally foreseen — possibly well into 2008. Thus the early planning for keeping it up beyond late summer. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11233385/

Unfortunately in today's NYTimes article, Defense Secretary Robert Gates (whom I actually met when I was kid - aren't 'cha just jealous?) has quite a knack for understatement:

quote:

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said today that he was discouraged by the departure of the major Sunni Arab bloc from Iraq’s coalition government, and noted that the Bush administration may have misjudged the difficulty of achieving reconciliation among Iraq’s sectarian factions. In one of his bluntest assessments of the progress of the administration’s Iraq strategy, Mr. Gates said: "I think the developments on political side are somewhat discouraging at the national level. And clearly the withdrawal of the Sunnis from the government is discouraging. My hope is that it can all be patched back together." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/w...&hp&oref=slogin

Can't say I blame him for showing a bit of reservation over this clear "oh shit" moment. But this is the whole problem with the "surge" philosophy - it can't last on its own merits alone. The whole point of the surge was to calm shit down in areas SO THE POLITICAL PROCESS CAN SUCCESSFULLY UNFOLD AND HOPEFULLY START MEETING ITS BENCHMARKS, period. Quelling violence here and there is all well and good, but that is not the means to the end of why we increased forces by any wild stretch of the imagination. More, much much more had to take place consecutively.

And what are we seeing instead? - Political mayhem. No benchmarks of any sort being met. Fucking vacation time by the Iraqi government.

What the fuck?

The second article ties in to the first article I quoted. Again from the last paragraph above:

quote:

If the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki does manage to achieve the political milestones demanded by Washington, then the U.S. military probably will be told to sustain the troop buildup much longer than originally foreseen — possibly well into 2008.

That's worst case scenario supposedly, if things aren't going right politically - we could be sitting ducks "well into 2008." I know most of you have read that Bush/Cheney have indicated this surge lasting as long as it takes or something along those lines. But putting aside the political pressure and public outcry of being there too long for a moment, understand that we simply cannot sustain the numbers for the surge even with our newly extended 15 month tours. So how long can we sustain these numbers just on the tour length alone?:

quote:

By extending troop deployments in Iraq from 12 months to 15 months, the Army has made it possible for Bush to maintain the troop buildup until about April 2008. But if he wanted to go beyond that it would require some even more painful moves by the Army, at the risk of reaching a breaking point. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...raqreport_N.htm

One might argue that given the number of mental and physical health issues mentioned previously, we're way past the breaking point with our military. But my point is with the current numbers and the likelihood that Bush will not push this military any further, we can only go to April of next year.

I would say that for those remaining 1/4-1/3 Iraqi war supporters out there, this is a terrific opportunity for you to put your money where your mouth is and go enlist. I cannot fathom how anyone who supports this cause of endless battles in the Middle East should not rise to this moment of April 2008 and fully support your war and your president. I know there are a few here like Q5 who are already serving their country, and for those select few war supporters like Q. I applaud and give respects to you for doing so.

As for the rest, I see no reason why you should back down now. There's more to fighting this war than just your keyboard, just your vote, and just your good strong supporting voice. Join the fight you truly believe in now!:

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

(in reference to the video above posted by Opus)

Holy shit! What a bunch of brainwashed retarded chickenhawk turds!

LOL, I loved his bumper sticker btw.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan I wish I had all time to come back with all that information. Believe me, even if I came here with articles, its hard to persuade a TA crowd. Just wanted to share the article. :]

quote:

I think liberals just want to lose this war.

And no doubt share with us some of your more retarded sentiments. Way to adopt a "winning" strategy espoused by "liberals" since 2004. Of course now it's not so winning anymore because you've endorsed incompetance for so long that we've "turned another corner". Seriously, do you really think you have anything to be proud of? Here's a homework assignment, why don't you describe the political situation in Iraq given recent events? What's the trend in Iraqi civilian deaths the past couple months?

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Retro ...

There are now no longer any Sunnis in Nouri al-Maliki's cabinet. This progress is phenominal.

quote:

Iraqi Crisis Deepens as 5 More Ministers Quit Cabinet Meetings U.S. Announces Deaths of Nine Soldiers, Four Killed on Monday in Diyala Province By Sudarsan Raghavan Washington Post Foreign Service Tuesday, August 7, 2007; 6:20 AM BAGHDAD, Aug. 7 -- Iraq's political crisis deepened Monday as five more ministers withdrew from cabinet meetings, delivering a major blow to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's fractured unity government and efforts to reconcile Iraq's warring parties. Hours earlier, a truck bomb in a Shiite village near the northern city of Tall Afar killed 31 people and wounded scores more, striking an area that was once hailed by President Bush and U.S. military commanders as an oasis of stability, following U.S. operations against insurgents there. Six children were among the dead, police said. The U.S. military also announced the deaths of nine American soldiers, including four killed in an explosion Monday in volatile Diyala province, where U.S. forces are engaged in a major offensive against Sunni insurgents. The blast injured 12 other U.S. soldiers, the military said in a statement. One soldier was killed by a sophisticated roadside bomb in west Baghdad on Monday, and another was killed during combat in eastern Baghdad on Sunday, the military said. Three soldiers were killed Saturday when a roadside bomb struck their convoy south of Baghdad, the military announced Tuesday. The names of the slain soldiers were not released. Meanwhile, U.S. and Iranian diplomats met in Baghdad to launch a new security committee in an attempt to bring stability to Iraq. The committee is a product of face-to-face talks the two sides have had in recent months, following nearly 30 years of diplomatic freeze. "It is an established channel of communication, and we will see in the future as to whether or not it is a useful channel of communication," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters in Washington. The latest boycott by the five ministers, a mix of Sunnis and Shiites loyal to former Iraqi prime minister Ayad Allawi, followed last week's decision by the top Sunni political bloc to pull its six ministers from the cabinet. Monday's action left the government, at least for the time being, without any politicians from Sunni factions in the Shiite-dominated cabinet. Legislators loyal to Allawi said the ministers would continue to run their ministries but not attend any cabinet meetings. They cited as reasons for their action a lack of progress on issues such as the status of Iraqi detainees, the repatriation of displaced Iraqis and the return of former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party to government jobs. "This act is not an escalation, but it is an objection to what the government is doing," Alia Nusaiyef Jasim, a legislator in Allawi's secular Shiite al-Iraqiyah bloc, told the al-Jazeera television network. "The Iraqiyah bloc participated in the government on the basis of sharing in the decision-making, but the bloc is marginalized in the government" In Qabak, 15 miles north of Tall Afar, police officials said the suicide bomber drove an explosives-laden truck carrying ice blocks into the village center and detonated it near a crowd that included women and children. The small village, which has no police station or military barracks, was targeted because of its vulnerability, said Brig Gen. Najim Abdullah, Tall Afar's mayor. "The perpetrator of this act was aiming at raising the sectarian tension among the citizens since Tall Afar is known for its sectarian and ethnic diversity," said Abdullah. "There isn't a single house in the village which does not have someone killed or wounded in the bombing, because it took place in the center of the village," said Salih al-Qaddo, director of Tall Afar's main hospital. Hours later, another suicide truck bomb targeted an Iraqi army patrol in the northern city of Mosul, wounding 12 soldiers, Maj. Khursheed Ahmad said. South of Baghdad, a roadside bomb exploded in a bus station, killing 8 people and wounding 10, police said. In Baqubah, about 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, Iraqi security forces found 60 unidentified bodies in a mass grave. Most had been shot and handcuffed, and they showed signs of torture, police said. In Baghdad, police found ten corpses Monday. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...ml?hpid=topnews

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Retro ...