I did give two reasons why why the continent continues to remain in a poor state of affairs - bad governance and a dependancy on the West

I was just replying to Firestarter who suggested the fault was not of the West

The two reasons I gave (if correct) give rise to possible solutions to sort the mess out

I guess dependency on the West is the easier of the two, but the issue over bad governance is very tricky indeed

See Zimbabwe for example, having Mugabe dependent on the West is a good thing imo, as that gives us some leverage over him. But then it keeps the country from developing. But wiping out that dependency allows Mugabe to strengthen his power. Basically, these governments need to change before the West changes their activities in Africa, but that's the problem - people don't wanna give up power, so how do you change these oppressive governments in some African countries?

Last edited by George Smiley on Aug-30-2007 at 08:40

Educate the people living in them, governments regardless of where they are or the principles of their party agenda, behave a lot better in the interests of people with a nice big, bipartisan spotlight on their every activity.
Zimbabwe was a perfectly fine, functional country before it was nationalised, I felt safer there in the 90's than I ever did in most large, western cities.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well what exaxctly is it you want Peru to do about the mess Africa is in?! IMO there are two factors prolonging the mess in Africa (altho I exclude most of the North African Arab states because I think they fall into a different category): Bad governance and dependency on the West. If we want to talk about historical blame, then yes, it is entirely the fault of the West.

Bad governance is not the West's fault.
For every local warlord that falls, another takes his place.
This is the cycle that has to stop and that has to happen on their end.
Problem is that once someone comes to power, they get a fat head and it starts all over.
It's hard to trust anyone and I don't blame the West when it's obvious THEY DON'T WANT OUR HELP
Ask yourself, why would Sudan send home our Canadian diplomats?
Does that sound like a country that wants help??
From CANADA no less; the country of peace keepers and negotiation.

If you mean by dependency, our philanthropic ways of throwing billions of dollars at them, I do agree.
Much of that goes to first paying off local warlords (again the problem) even before any of that aid ever reaches it's intended audience.

That doesn't mean that there aren't groups (from the West) in Africa helping them cope with their dire situations however.
In fact, there are lots but they don't get the support they deserve.

In short, those countries in Africa that want help, will help to step forward with good intentions.
It's not that the West is ignoring them totally, I believe it has more to do with being let down, time and time again; we've become dumb to their plight.


...How long ago was BAND-AID again?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Bad governance is not the West's fault. For every local warlord that falls, another takes his place. This is the cycle that has to stop and that has to happen on their end. Problem is that once someone comes to power, they get a fat head and it starts all over. It's hard to trust anyone and I don't blame the West when it's obvious THEY DON'T WANT OUR HELP Ask yourself, why would Sudan send home our Canadian diplomats? Does that sound like a country that wants help?? From CANADA no less; the country of peace keepers and negotiation. If you mean by dependency, our philanthropic ways of throwing billions of dollars at them, I do agree. Much of that goes to first paying off local warlords (again the problem) even before any of that aid ever reaches it's intended audience. That doesn't mean that there aren't groups (from the West) in Africa helping them cope with their dire situations however. In fact, there are lots but they don't get the support they deserve. In short, those countries in Africa that want help, will help to step forward with good intentions. It's not that the West is ignoring them totally, I believe it has more to do with being let down, time and time again; we've become dumb to their plight. ...How long ago was BAND-AID again?

You seem to have quite a problem accepting responsibility for things! It's always "their own fault" they find themselves in the situations they are in!

You also show a lack of understanding about what "dependency" on the West means

And when you say "they" and "their" and "those countries" are you talking about the governments/rulers or the general public?

Bad governance is a catch 22 situation, because once someone seizes power its hard for a population to take power and install democracy. It's pointless you saying "it has to change at their end" - well great, how do they "change their end"? Never one to offer solutions are you?! Perhaps a strengthened pluralist society can be built up through Western aid and investment somehow avoiding the ruling elite. Strong pluralist societies tend to develop into democracies but still, it's a very long shot as undemocratic rulers tend to have ways of keeping a grip on power. But at the end of the day, countries indebted to the West will have an impossible task creating the viable economies needed to improve their situation.

The EU has a fairly good system of trade agreements with African countries where economic arrangements are agreed with political conditions, such as improving democratic structures in society

i think everyone in this thread should read a book, the state of africa. a very good insight into the recent history of the african nations, starting with the european colonial powers dividing the continent, ignoring the existing tribal regions. it then moves on to the post-colonial era, and the problems when a few, mostly western educated people, came to power and held on to it by any means possible.
For the most part, the poverty in africa is not so much to do with a lack of resources being sent there from the west, but with the corruption in government. presidents who take the money from state banks, not just millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. the common practice of stacking government positions with cronies means things are being run for the benefit of the few, not the good of the country.
things are slowly turning around in several countries, and heading backwards in others.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You seem to have quite a problem accepting responsibility for things! It's always "their own fault" they find themselves in the situations they are in

No I don't and I never said it was always their own fault.
If you think that by putting words in my mouth makes you any more correct you're sadly mistaken.
And by not answering my question regarding the dismissal of the Canadian ambassador to Sudan, I'll have to guess that you think Africa can do no wrong and that somehow, evil Western capitalism is the root of all their ills.
You think I'm blaming others; I'm not. I'm blaming others for their own missing sense of responsibility to their own country!
Again, think Sudan and years of famine before trying to understand that.

quote:

You also show a lack of understanding about what "dependency" on the West means

I don't have a lack of understanding about what "dependency" means.
I do however, have a lack understanding of what your version of "dependency" is and the lack of explanation in a second post.
What are you trying to say here?

quote:

And when you say "they" and "their" and "those countries" are you talking about the governments/rulers or the general public?

There's nothing grammatically incorrect with what I wrote; read it again.
"They", "Their" and "Those countries" are all in context when you read the whole sentence / paragraph in which they reside.
HINT: Separate paragraphs mean separate points...English 101 dood

quote:

Bad governance is a catch 22 situation, because once someone seizes power its hard for a population to take power and install democracy. It's pointless you saying "it has to change at their end" - well great, how do they "change their end"? Never one to offer solutions are you?! Perhaps a strengthened pluralist society can be built up through Western aid and investment somehow avoiding the ruling elite. Strong pluralist societies tend to develop into democracies but still, it's a very long shot as undemocratic rulers tend to have ways of keeping a grip on power. But at the end of the day, countries indebted to the West will have an impossible task creating the viable economies needed to improve their situation.

You forget that the West pardoned BILLIONS of dollars in debt to Africa?
At least we agree that there is a very big problem with local warlords; until they can be controlled somehow, the West can't do anything significant to help; it's not that they don't want to, but why flush millions of dollars in investment only to have to annexed by a bunch of little dictators with guns?

quote:

The EU has a fairly good system of trade agreements with African countries where economic arrangements are agreed with political conditions, such as improving democratic structures in society

It's a start and sort of like throwing the guard dog a bone while getting a chance to do some good before the dog comes back.
I'm not too keen on this because it doesn't actually solve the problem. This just makes the dog more bold, and soon, that lousy bone just isn't going to cut it anymore as the base level of appeasement is risen with every offer.

Any way we look at this, the West is handcuffed and short of landing troops (which I don't believe will solve anything here) Africa's people are going to have to, somehow, revolt from within.
Pretty hard to do when they can't even get past their most basic needs in most places where they need to the most.
And if the West 'helps' with this revolt, it just looks like foreign countries meddling in the affairs of others and then compassion looks like conspiracy.
A Catch 22 indeed.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Ummm, last time I checked the West supports some of these brutal African regimes ... for resources, for oil, for strategic alliances, and most of all, because these regimes owe a lot of money to the West - and their end could really shake the way the West collects their interest money off the billions Africa owes to them. Dictators offer more security and stability to Western corporations than in democratic, or warlord African states where political alliances and leaders change like the weather.

Firestarter, I recommend reading a great book "Confessions Of An Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. It will then make it all clear to you.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Lot of books come close to a bipartisan view of events, however not all of them are written by historians, most are written by journalists and virtually all are written by people who aren't from Africa. Now I'm not a journo and certainly not a historian (Laz is, it's his secret shame, aside from house music ) but I think it important to point out that you will find the focus of these books selling is to describe the negative events, horrors and blame game.
Very few will be selling because they focus on the successes, the good things that happen and the view of the people living there and how they think things can be improved. Not a western viewpoint on fixing things, as much as you like to make everyone else like you, its just not the way the world works, like the Americans 'fixed' Iraq from tyranny or how the Russians tried to 'fix' Afghanistan from being backwards hill billys or how everyone decided on the best way of fixing communism and democracy was to chop Korea in half.

And I will tell you why this is from my perspective.
People only get a genuine appreciation of what they have, be it material objects, a system of government or pride in each other and their country if they have earned it with their own hard work.
Don't try to foist ideals on people, it really doesn't work and the only way they sort it out is by themselves, trial and error. I don't really expect to be taken on the same literary level as a professional writer, but I leave it really up to you who you want to listen too and I won't take it personally.
A long term forum member of 7 years most people know, selling you nothing, or a journalist/writer you don't know selling you a book they think you should read.

There's a lot of things I won't ever write about Africa some of them so horrific I won't even tell my closest partner or what's left of my family about and they still give me nightmares. In any case, most people don't listen, they'll never truly understand and from where they are in the world, never have to experience.
But someone in Africa isn't so much different from yourself, given the same chance as you, there is no difference, if your social structure, government and culture was ripped away like theirs, you'd be no different to them.

Put aside your macho BS'ing for a moment and honestly imagine yourself in their shoes, (or lack there of) lack of education, working sun-up to sun down on a patch of earth to grow enough to eat. It is immensely difficult to grow food on a subsistence level and ten times harder with no industrialisation, no fertiliser, no irrigation and at the mercy of the seasons.
How would you have become as a person if you where taken in the middle of the night at 12 or 13, parents killed if they resisted, all you ever knew from then on was how to maintain your weapon, march up to 20km a day on sometimes no water, very little food. Would the wake up call to being an adult be when you pulled the trigger and watched as your weapon ripped the life out of someone or when your own commanders assaulted and violated you to do as they say if you objected?

Do you really appreciate how lucky you are to be where you are or would you have to lose everything to understand that?

There's no more I can say.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Lot of books come close to a bipartisan view of events, however not all of them are written by historians, most are written by journalists and virtually all are written by people who aren't from Africa. Now I'm not a journo and certainly not a historian (Laz is, it's his secret shame, aside from house music ) but I think it important to point out that you will find the focus of these books selling is to describe the negative events, horrors and blame game. Very few will be selling because they focus on the successes, the good things that happen and the view of the people living there and how they think things can be improved. Not a western viewpoint on fixing things, as much as you like to make everyone else like you, its just not the way the world works, like the Americans 'fixed' Iraq from tyranny or how the Russians tried to 'fix' Afghanistan from being backwards hill billys or how everyone decided on the best way of fixing communism and democracy was to chop Korea in half. And I will tell you why this is from my perspective. People only get a genuine appreciation of what they have, be it material objects, a system of government or pride in each other and their country if they have earned it with their own hard work. Don't try to foist ideals on people, it really doesn't work and the only way they sort it out is by themselves, trial and error. I don't really expect to be taken on the same literary level as a professional writer, but I leave it really up to you who you want to listen too and I won't take it personally. A long term forum member of 7 years most people know, selling you nothing, or a journalist/writer you don't know selling you a book they think you should read. There's a lot of things I won't ever write about Africa some of them so horrific I won't even tell my closest partner or what's left of my family about and they still give me nightmares. In any case, most people don't listen, they'll never truly understand and from where they are in the world, never have to experience. But someone in Africa isn't so much different from yourself, given the same chance as you, there is no difference, if your social structure, government and culture was ripped away like theirs, you'd be no different to them. Put aside your macho BS'ing for a moment and honestly imagine yourself in their shoes, (or lack there of) lack of education, working sun-up to sun down on a patch of earth to grow enough to eat. It is immensely difficult to grow food on a subsistence level and ten times harder with no industrialisation, no fertiliser, no irrigation and at the mercy of the seasons. How would you have become as a person if you where taken in the middle of the night at 12 or 13, parents killed if they resisted, all you ever knew from then on was how to maintain your weapon, march up to 20km a day on sometimes no water, very little food. Would the wake up call to being an adult be when you pulled the trigger and watched as your weapon ripped the life out of someone or when your own commanders assaulted and violated you to do as they say if you objected? Do you really appreciate how lucky you are to be where you are or would you have to lose everything to understand that? There's no more I can say.

I am a bit confused ... how does all that have anything to do with my post? Are you blatantly implying that I dont know those things? Of course I know. And it will continue happening as long as these dictators get supported and business dealings with from the West ... otherwise they would have crumbled by now if cut off from the rest of the world. Hey, I almost forgot ... how many of these dictators are American friends, btw? And whats being done on the government or economic level to do about it? Why do we the individuals have to pay the price for government ignorance?

You might support a child today, but another 5 million will die. Feeding them while not fixing their country and infrastructure is a waste of money, thats like using buckets to stop the leaking water dam. You can support one child, while the family will then bear 10 more children and of course not only do they lack food they actually have even more children. While in the West most families cant "afford" to have even two. Its more than just giving money, money is never going to fix this problem ...

Like what do you expect me to do, seriously? I can talk pretty about this issue too, you know. But the Live 8 thing has done little to help the Africans. They need to help themselves first. Otherwise the problems will remain the same.

If we stop supporting, arming and funding the warlords, dictators and so on in Africa, they will falter. Then eventually better people will come to power. They will then decide and start programs to fix their countries. If we continue to meddle in their affairs, we will continue the conflicts. What we think is rarely in the best interests of African people, my friend, we usually think whats best FOR US. We dont live there, thats right, so we dont know whats good for them. You the tourist might have the good intentions, but giving money to homeless people doesnt make their lives better either.

You can gather the poor Africans and continue sending endless shipments of food and feed them, and so on. But once the food is gone they will be hungry again. What is the likely to happen is other people joining them to get the free food. Why not? Its been documented the abuse of UN humanitarian shipments, that feed these brutal regimes as well on the way. Does that really help Africa?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Aug-31-2007 at 17:34

Also, I disagree that the problems in Africa have to do with their reliance on the West, that's the biggest misconception ... its actually the other way around - the West has set Africa up to spend the rest of its existence merely paying off debt and interests on massive loans taken, which were once conveniently lobbied and given to African dictators some time ago, and the rest is history. We have their asses. And they signed on the dotted line that they have greater obligations to do these payments than do anything for their own country. Or else IMF or WTO comes in and seizes economic interests or fucks them up. Plus, why does the African elite care - they live very well, and with Western support they are not abliged to do anything for the country - because if they do, it will undermine their own way of life and standards, undermine the leadership and control. So they choose to maintain the current situation ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture